Mini_M Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi all, Our toy poodle Milo met some other puppies for the first time at puppy pre-school on Monday. While the other puppies seemed to get along and play with other quite well, Milo seemed to be terrified of all the others. He'd go in for a quick sniff, then run for the corner of the room. A few times he got stuck trying to escape through the bars of the large pen they were in. He'd sometimes run to the other people there, as if he was much more comfortable with humans rather than dogs. Is this normal for some pups? Will he grow out of it in time? We've been very careful not to spoil him. We don't carry or cuddle him excessively. If he gets scared by a dog barking we either ignore it, or give him treats to take his mind off it. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganman Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I wouldnt take my pup to somewhere where all the pups are thrown in together like that and carnt get away.Some pups are more outgoing than others and throwing them in the deep end like that can effect them for life if they get really scared.Pups should socialized with other dogs but it shouldnt be a free for all, this doesnt sound like a real well run puppy school.BTW you shouldnt give a pup a treat when its acting scared coz what your doing is rewarding it for being scared and thatll encourage it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 give him treats to take his mind off it. oops ;) you may just be inadvertently rewarding him for feeling scared I would also be a bit concerned if he is so uncertain around other pups... and then gets blocked by a fence... I have no suggestions, sorry.. other than next time.. maybe have him onlead outside the pen... let him have a good look/sniff...first.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Speak to your instructor- explain your concerns. We don't have puppy free for alls but do allow puppy play with 2-3 pups at a time. No puppy should be chased, jumped on or bullied at puppy school. I don't however have a problem having 2 pups play/ interact and have one watching at a distance while that pup builds confidence. Owners should be directed by the trainer to stop pups and settle them when appropriate as well as how to build confidence in a timid pup. I have a puppy school running at the moment where there are 2 very timid pups. All of the other pups played in their groups and then these 2 pups were left in the puppy pen, closely supervised for the remainder of the class. They initially both sat near their owners and barked and jumped up trying to be removed. Owners were told to ignore them and by the end of the class the pups were playing with each other appropriately and showing lovely body language. Ask your trainer- if they are good they should be able to help your concerns and put your mind at ease with a plan to build the pups confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Have a read of this article, may give you some guidance as to what is happening with your pup. How old is he? http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 sadly this is a problem with some puppy pre schools.They end up throwing all pups in the deep end & some dogs take longer to adjust than others . I agree with cosmolo talk to the instructor & if they arent willing to make a plan or work with your dog then go elsewhere. Whats is your instructors qualifications?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini_M Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Hi all, I'll make sure not to give him treats in the future when he's scared. I thought I read somewhere that this was a way to have good memories of the time the scary dog barked, or whatever. He's 13 weeks old now, so may be entering the 1st fear period I was reading about. But I was told not to socialise him with other dogs until a week after his 12 week injection. We've been carrying him out of the house once a day for a walk. The puppy school seems really well run, and I'm sure there is no problem with their methods. They separated the puppies into a shy group and a confident group. Then the puppies were introduced slowly within their group on lead until they sniffed each other, and then were allowed to play. Milo started off having fun, but after a few minutes just kept trying to run away and was shaking. It's the one run by the Dog Logic instructors, which came highly recommended by this forum and other sources. I'll bring up this issue directly with the instructors next time. By the way, if anyone here is near Sydney inner west and has a puppy that could do with some socialising, I'd be keen to meet up and introduce our puppies. Edited January 20, 2009 by Mini_M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 . Milo started off having fun, but after a few minutes just kept trying to run away But often this is the key ,small doses is generally enough,most of these classes are an hour. So what you need to do is allow Milo to have fun & i personally would remove him whilst still enjoying & praise. Sit aside & allow him to watch,hear & then if all is great join again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi all,I'll make sure not to give him treats in the future when he's scared. I thought I read somewhere that this was a way to have good memories of the time the scary dog barked, or whatever. Well yes, I've been doing this too. Ian Dunbar recommends it as does my trainer at puppy school. It is supposed to give them a happy experience in the face of something potentially frightening. I do, however, think that it's best to remain calm for the sake of the dog - let them know you're there but not molly coddle - if you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 dogon- do you have a link to where Ian Dunbar recommends giving treats to a scared puppy? Or is it in a book? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charli73 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 My German Shepherd was petrified of other dogs at puppy school, she used to hide under the chairs and not come out...we thought we had th runt who was scared of everything.. With a lot of careful socialisation (one on one) she soon became more confident and now is a happy normal and very well socialised 18 month old... Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I agree with Cosmolo 100%. Puppy free for all, even if it's slowly introduced can be thwart with danger. Puppies should be split into groups according to temperament and then watched closely. Any puppy who looks terrified and runs for his life is not having a good time. Get some professional help, or speak with your instructor so that you can rectify the problem before it turns into something much worse. Cosmolo, I am going to be attending Ian Dunbar's seminar next week so hopefully he will make mention of his 'feed whilst frightened' sentiments...would be interesting to learn why he states this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 dogon- do you have a link to where Ian Dunbar recommends giving treats to a scared puppy? Or is it in a book? Thanks "After You get your Puppy" - page 122 is one example. I do this with Rodney all the time and he turns from an anxious/ frightened pup (in the face of a new experience) to a tail wagging pup. I had a similar experience to the OP at my puppy school. After he had a treat he was more willing to venture out into the circle whereas previously he wanted to hide behind me. He also growled a lot which, I assume, was a fear response. I agree though that puppies should not be put into situation where they are backed into corners. Not sure that a treat would work if this was happening. Any animal would want to exercise either the fight or flight response in this case. My trainer put Rodney in a pen on his own, as you mentioned you do Cosmolo, and this was a better solution for him. He was able to watch and feel safe at the same time. When he came out I treated him and praised him and he was able to be a bit bolder with the more active dogs in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Cosmolo, I am going to be attending Ian Dunbar's seminar next week so hopefully he will make mention of his 'feed whilst frightened' sentiments...would be interesting to learn why he states this. hmmm...it would be really interesting to see what he says about this. This is an excerpt from the book: ..."Offer your dog a piece of kibble every time a car, big truck, or noisy motorcycle goes by. Offer your dog a couple of pieces of kibble every time another dog or person passes. Praise your dog and offer a treat whenever she greets another dog or person in a friendly fashion. Praise your dog and offer three tasty treats whenever a child approaches. And when a child whizzes by on a skateboard or dirt bike, handfeed her the whole bag of food. " Ok, so I take this to mean that you are PREVENTING a fearful reaction. But how many times does something unknown happen and a dog is already in a tizz. I know this has happened to me and I've treated him which then helps to build confidence. At least this is what I've observed. I'd really like to know if Dunbar would advocate against treats ONCE a dog is already fearful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I interpret that to not be rewarding fearful responses- but rewarding before the dog has become fearful which i agree with. Giving treats once the dog is scared though= recipe for disaster IMO for most dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I interpret that to not be rewarding fearful responses- but rewarding before the dog has become fearful which i agree with. Giving treats once the dog is scared though= recipe for disaster IMO for most dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Just a thought. which might help OP and other novices like me I would add that perhaps owners should take note of how scared their dog is at any given time. If petrified (ie. tail between legs, growling etc) then a removal from a situation would be in order and begin a program of desensitization (using praise and treats) slowly to the thing that causes fear. If a dog is showing anxiousness BUT more due to being unsure rather than full blown terrified then a treat might well be the thing to get the dog back into confidence mode. Still interested to see what Dunbar's take would be on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximum Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 By the way, if anyone here is near Sydney inner west and has a puppy that could do with some socialising, I'd be keen to meet up and introduce our puppies. Hi Mini-M I'm in Sydney, north side about 10 mins from the city. I'd be very keen to do some puppy play dates at a park or wherever. I have a 20 week old poodle/maltese cross, named Max. He's a ball of energy, absolutely LOVES all people he meets, but is rather timid around other dogs. I really don't know anyone close by who has dogs, so I'd be pleased to help you out - you'd be helping me out too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini_M Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Just thought I'd let you know that Milo is coming along well with his socialisation. We've introduced him to a few other (calm) dogs during the week and he got along with them fine. He still gets a bit scared at loud barking, but that's to be expected at this age I guess. The other day he met a 1 yr old cattle dog who kept grabbing his lead and trying to drag him around the park. After a few initial scared responses he got used to it and was happy to sit quietly with this other dog holding him by the lead. Was very cute to watch. In puppy class last night he got along well with all the other puppies and played with them without fear. I'm meeting up with Maximum in a few days to introduce our puppies to each other.. if anyone else wants to come along to our next meetup, let us know!! bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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