Help Me Register My Dog

[persephone]

I was outlining their versatility

ahh.. I can believe it.. the few I've met are just such lovely people dogs

[kateykateykatey]

The moral of the story is, want a bull breed, then buy one from an ethical ANKC registered breeder and you will be provided with a microchip and a slip of paper called a pedigree that will ensure your dog is not a found to be a "restricted breed""

Not my post I'm afraid.

That is what I was responding to. There was no reference made to this particuar case. And if you think the only people who have pits are people who know nothing about working dogs, then I believe you probably need to step out of the show ring for a while and take a glance around.

You still haven't answered the question Rhaps.. what sort of "work" do people who want APBTs want them to perform.

Last time I checked we were talking about a particular case and a particular dog.. the one most people posting in this thread are concerned about.

My background is dog sports, not much showing until now. I know some owners of working bred herding breeds and I know how seriously they take the responsiblity for owning a dog like that in suburbia. I don't know how you've concluded I think APBT owners no nothing about working dogs, I just don't know what "work" their owners expect them to perform. How many of them do any kind of "work" at all?

Not your post? Who said it was? I wasn't responding to a post of yours, I was responding to Warley.

As for what work pit bulls can perform. Wait, your background is dog sports and you have no idea what work pit bulls can be expected to perform? ...

Pit bulls are deployed in many official fields from drug detection to tracking and trailing. They have been known to work as assistance dogs, also.

Aside from that, think of any dog sport you can. Pit bulls are versatile enough to do just about all of them. Weight pulling, high jump, agility, flyball, obedience, frisbee, dock jumping - they can also excel at complex tricks.

Do a little you-tubing perhaps.

Absolutely, but nobody is disputing this.

What I understood to be poodlefan's point, was that the onus of having a working breed, or a breed with a very high intelligence and activity requirements (poodles included!) is the high demand the dogs have for socialisation, activity, stimulation and exercise. BSL doesn't enable this to occur. Sucks, but that's simply the law, and to not abide by it is to risk the dog's life.

Not providing this stimulation leads to frustrated, bored and destructive dogs.

Poodlefan doesn't appear to be disputing the fact that pitbulls can do any of the above activities you described, but rather-- all of the above is pretty difficult with BSL. At least, that's what it seems like to me.

[sydking]

Rhaps:

Many people want actual working dogs. Not ones that are just bred to look pretty.

Really? What sort of work do they want them to do in your average suburban neighbourhood?

What sort of work will the dog of an 18 year old guy living at home, who needed his parents permission to get a dog, need to perform? Do you think someone in that situation, who doesn't have fencing secure enough to contain a "working dog" is the kind of owner the breed needs to move ahead?

Personally I think the fact that the breed IS banned is what attracts a certain type of buyer.. the "oh wow, I've got a dog so dangerous its illegal to own one" brigade. All the more reason to ditch BSL.

who are you to state that im 18? dont state my age if you DONT know it.

[Sam&Saki]

Oh dear....... Reading back through this thread you don't know whether to laugh or cry!!!

Sydking, if you're still living at home and your parents weren't thrilled with the idea of you getting a dog, you'll get a few people on DOL pointing out that it perhaps wasn't the best time to be getting a dog - even once you move out of home you'll have all the hassles of rental living with a dog and so on and so forth.

Also if you weren't already savvy with the registration and legislation involved with owning a Pitty, perhaps they weren't the best breed to choose, and you'll have people pointing this out to you a lot too.

However given you already have the dog now, that sort of commentry is too little too late.

Whether you register the dog as an APBT and keep it muzzled and contained; or whether you try to fly under the radar and register it is an AmStaff, you'll have trials an tribulations and disapproving people either way.

However DOL is a great place to learn about training, socialisation, etc that are vital for any puppy, and even more so for a dog that will be under greater scrutiny than other breeds. I encourage you to stay to learn more about these things in the non BSL threads.

[amstaffchick]

amstaffs are in danger of bieng targeted by bsl because thier apbt's, not because people are registering thier dogs as amstaffs.

Never fear Dogs NSW have cut a deal for the ANKC registered breeds. Amstaff is one of those, APBT is not.

If they are indeed the same dog, you have to wonder why anyone would purchase an APBT , when there is the perfectly legal alternative in the Amstaff.

The moral of the story is, want a bull breed, then buy one from an ethical ANKC registered breeder and you will be provided with a microchip and a slip of paper called a pedigree that will ensure your dog is not a found to be a "restricted breed"

Many people want actual working dogs. Not ones that are just bred to look pretty.

well said PPS...

Rhaps.....Surely you are not about to sit here and tell me that the AST is NOT capable of WORK???? I can Assure you i dont breed solely for looks, ability and agility are two criteria that are extremely important at my kennel and both are shown in abundance here.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

if you agree with pps then you have nothing to worry about do you you shouldnt feel threatened by people registering thier dogs as ast's.

i saw your post before you edited you said that registering as ast's puts your breed in jeopardy. well if you agree that ankc breeds will be untouched by bsl then whats the problem ?

[Nekhbet]

because the media and the uneducated public are the first to lob them all in together - Oh that dog that did that was an Amstaff so they must all be bad!

ANd sheltering under the umbrella that people worked so hard to get in order to flount the law ... its not fair or right.

[poodlefan]

Rhaps:

Many people want actual working dogs. Not ones that are just bred to look pretty.

Really? What sort of work do they want them to do in your average suburban neighbourhood?

What sort of work will the dog of an 18 year old guy living at home, who needed his parents permission to get a dog, need to perform? Do you think someone in that situation, who doesn't have fencing secure enough to contain a "working dog" is the kind of owner the breed needs to move ahead?

Personally I think the fact that the breed IS banned is what attracts a certain type of buyer.. the "oh wow, I've got a dog so dangerous its illegal to own one" brigade. All the more reason to ditch BSL.

who are you to state that im 18? dont state my age if you DONT know it.

Was I wrong? Or did you misinform another forum of your age? Google is a powerful thing my friend.

Edited January 21, 2009 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

Rhaps:

As for what work pit bulls can perform. Wait, your background is dog sports and you have no idea what work pit bulls can be expected to perform? ...

Pit bulls are deployed in many official fields from drug detection to tracking and trailing. They have been known to work as assistance dogs, also.

Aside from that, think of any dog sport you can Pit bulls are versatile enough to do just about all of them. Weight pulling, high jump, agility, flyball, obedience, frisbee, dock jumping - they can also excel at complex tricks.

I don't consider most dog sports to be "work" anymore than I consider my poodles to be "actual working dogs". By your definition they are.

Even dog sports like herding and retrieving are highly stylised versions of the work done by dogs who do those activities for a job. Most dog sports are not traditional work for most of the dogs that compete in them and in the 10 odd years I've done them, I've seen ONE APBT in a trial ring in anything. I've seen an Irish Wolfhound do flyball, a Great Dane do agility (and an Afghan) a pug that got tracking and higher obedience titles.. nothing breed specific or "working" lines about those dogs. My poodles lure course but were not selectively bred for that activity.

I am aware that weight pulls are an APBT activity in the states but other breeds including ASTs are just as capable of doing these things as a pittie.

So when you talked about APBT fanciers wanting "working" dogs, I thought there must be a legal, breed specific job for them. Apparently not. Responsibly owned Restricted Breeds could not compete in these sports in BSL states anyway due to the muzzling and leash restrictions they are subject to.

My conclusion must be that many dog buyers could buy non-Restricted Breeds for the type of "work" you were discussing. Some other factors must be influencing their choices.

Edited January 21, 2009 by poodlefan

[Zhou Xuanyao]

you have just been told that one of the things we value is the ability to work. if you dont agree too bad. you like poodles, we like pitbulls, end of story.

an even tempermant, unmatched tenacity and eagerness to please are amongst the traits the breed is characterized by. these traits should be highly valued in any dog in any job including loved suburban family pet. ethical apbt breeders are breeding primarily for correct type in TEMPERMANT and thats why the apbt is bred to a working standard for ethical buyers and the pet market not dog fighters.

[amstaffchick]

if you agree with pps then you have nothing to worry about do you you shouldnt feel threatened by people registering thier dogs as ast's.

i saw your post before you edited you said that registering as ast's puts your breed in jeopardy. well if you agree that ankc breeds will be untouched by bsl then whats the problem ?

I assume the later part of that was aimed my way?

I never said i agree that ANKC breeds will always be untouched by BSL so please dont put words in my mouth.

I was agreeing with this.....

If they are indeed the same dog, you have to wonder why anyone would purchase an APBT , when there is the perfectly legal alternative in the Amstaff.

The moral of the story is, want a bull breed, then buy one from an ethical ANKC registered breeder and you will be provided with a microchip and a slip of paper called a pedigree that will ensure your dog is not a found to be a "restricted breed"

Ppl registering their half bred mutts as AST'S with council offices all over this country is bound to have an effect sooner or later.... especially when a number of these dogs tend to be owned by less than responsible types!

[sydking]

you like poodles, we like pitbulls, end of story.

thats pretty much what it balls down to, well put

[luvabull]

Im tired i cant really think of a way to put it more diplomatically right now so instead let me edit and just say yes i agree with this

This notion that world abstinence from pitbull purchase will somehow prove we're all responsible, and in turn destroy BSL, is utter crap. I think the most successful method of fighting BSL is to show this law all the respect it deserves: none. When the world realises that these breeds will still thrive despite their feeble, pathetic and uneducated attempts at eradication, BSL will be abolished.

I must say, I do agree with that too..

[Guest rhapsodical78]

The moral of the story is, want a bull breed, then buy one from an ethical ANKC registered breeder and you will be provided with a microchip and a slip of paper called a pedigree that will ensure your dog is not a found to be a "restricted breed""

Not my post I'm afraid.

That is what I was responding to. There was no reference made to this particuar case. And if you think the only people who have pits are people who know nothing about working dogs, then I believe you probably need to step out of the show ring for a while and take a glance around.

You still haven't answered the question Rhaps.. what sort of "work" do people who want APBTs want them to perform.

Last time I checked we were talking about a particular case and a particular dog.. the one most people posting in this thread are concerned about.

My background is dog sports, not much showing until now. I know some owners of working bred herding breeds and I know how seriously they take the responsiblity for owning a dog like that in suburbia. I don't know how you've concluded I think APBT owners no nothing about working dogs, I just don't know what "work" their owners expect them to perform. How many of them do any kind of "work" at all?

Not your post? Who said it was? I wasn't responding to a post of yours, I was responding to Warley.

As for what work pit bulls can perform. Wait, your background is dog sports and you have no idea what work pit bulls can be expected to perform? ...

Pit bulls are deployed in many official fields from drug detection to tracking and trailing. They have been known to work as assistance dogs, also.

Aside from that, think of any dog sport you can. Pit bulls are versatile enough to do just about all of them. Weight pulling, high jump, agility, flyball, obedience, frisbee, dock jumping - they can also excel at complex tricks.

Do a little you-tubing perhaps.

Absolutely, but nobody is disputing this.

What I understood to be poodlefan's point, was that the onus of having a working breed, or a breed with a very high intelligence and activity requirements (poodles included!) is the high demand the dogs have for socialisation, activity, stimulation and exercise. BSL doesn't enable this to occur. Sucks, but that's simply the law, and to not abide by it is to risk the dog's life.

Not providing this stimulation leads to frustrated, bored and destructive dogs.

Poodlefan doesn't appear to be disputing the fact that pitbulls can do any of the above activities you described, but rather-- all of the above is pretty difficult with BSL. At least, that's what it seems like to me.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of what she was trying to say, but you're just proving my point. There are ways around abiding by the law. You just have to be sensible about it. Mindless pandering to ludicrous legislation is completely pointless.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Rhaps:

As for what work pit bulls can perform. Wait, your background is dog sports and you have no idea what work pit bulls can be expected to perform? ...

Pit bulls are deployed in many official fields from drug detection to tracking and trailing. They have been known to work as assistance dogs, also.

Aside from that, think of any dog sport you can Pit bulls are versatile enough to do just about all of them. Weight pulling, high jump, agility, flyball, obedience, frisbee, dock jumping - they can also excel at complex tricks.

I don't consider most dog sports to be "work" anymore than I consider my poodles to be "actual working dogs". By your definition they are.

Even dog sports like herding and retrieving are highly stylised versions of the work done by dogs who do those activities for a job. Most dog sports are not traditional work for most of the dogs that compete in them and in the 10 odd years I've done them, I've seen ONE APBT in a trial ring in anything. I've seen an Irish Wolfhound do flyball, a Great Dane do agility (and an Afghan) a pug that got tracking and higher obedience titles.. nothing breed specific or "working" lines about those dogs. My poodles lure course but were not selectively bred for that activity.

I am aware that weight pulls are an APBT activity in the states but other breeds including ASTs are just as capable of doing these things as a pittie.

So when you talked about APBT fanciers wanting "working" dogs, I thought there must be a legal, breed specific job for them. Apparently not. Responsibly owned Restricted Breeds could not compete in these sports in BSL states anyway due to the muzzling and leash restrictions they are subject to.

My conclusion must be that many dog buyers could buy non-Restricted Breeds for the type of "work" you were discussing. Some other factors must be influencing their choices.

Clearly, I'm not talking gainful employment here. When someone refers to 'working dogs' they refer to dogs that have been bred for 'working ability' which can be channeled into other areas. But really I think you know exaclty what I'm talking about. You're just playing semantics. Working dogs tend to have a greater aptitude for competitive sports. Up until a few years ago pits were highly involved. Just because people may not want to compete in such a public environment doesn't mean they haven't come to admire the traits that enable this sporting excellence, such as gameness, drive and focus. Further, there are plenty of outlets for these qualities that don't even involve leaving the house, if that's your concern.

"Some other factors must be influencing their choices".

I find it a little insulting that you would insinuate people only love the pit bull breed because they have a bad image. There are many, many people out there who value the breed with for its uniqe qualities. If all dogs are pretty much the same and there is no reason to prefer one dog over another, except for image reasons, why poodles? Are you a prissy, posh little princess?

Stereotpyes are so neat.

[poodlefan]

Clearly, I'm not talking gainful employment here. When someone refers to 'working dogs' they refer to dogs that have been bred for 'working ability' which can be channeled into other areas. But really I think you know exaclty what I'm talking about. You're just playing semantics.

I think your definition of a working dog is the first of this variety I've ever seen. "Working dogs" to most people I know are generally dogs who are members of the Working Group (Group 5) or dogs who actually perform a certain task for a living.

"Some other factors must be influencing their choices".

I find it a little insulting that you would insinuate people only love the pit bull breed because they have a bad image. There are many, many people out there who value the breed with for its uniqe qualities. If all dogs are pretty much the same and there is no reason to prefer one dog over another, except for image reasons, why poodles? Are you a prissy, posh little princess?

I said some people are attracted to the breed because of its bad image. Are you denying that? I've not been trying to insinuate anything. You said people wanted pits because they were "actual working dogs". I've been trying to get you to tell me what's so unique about this breed in terms of "working ability" and I've failed dismally. Many breeds, conform to your definition of a working dog. I still don't understand why people need to look to a this restricted breed for any particularly unique characteristic.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Clearly, I'm not talking gainful employment here. When someone refers to 'working dogs' they refer to dogs that have been bred for 'working ability' which can be channeled into other areas. But really I think you know exaclty what I'm talking about. You're just playing semantics.

I think your definition of a working dog is the first of this variety I've ever seen. "Working dogs" to most people I know are generally dogs who are members of the Working Group (Group 5) or dogs who actually perform a certain task for a living.

"Some other factors must be influencing their choices".

I find it a little insulting that you would insinuate people only love the pit bull breed because they have a bad image. There are many, many people out there who value the breed with for its uniqe qualities. If all dogs are pretty much the same and there is no reason to prefer one dog over another, except for image reasons, why poodles? Are you a prissy, posh little princess?

I said some people are attracted to the breed because of its bad image. Are you denying that? I've not been trying to insinuate anything. You said people wanted pits because they were "actual working dogs". I've been trying to get you to tell me what's so unique about this breed in terms of "working ability" and I've failed dismally. Many breeds, conform to your definition of a working dog. I still don't understand why people need to look to a this restricted breed for any particularly unique characteristic.

OR: "Working bred". For the uninitated; that means they are bred for ability instead of looks.

I think I've made my point pretty clear. People are passionate about this breed because of all the qualities I've mentioned. Let's reiterate, since you didn't get it the first time, and add a few more qualities for good measure. They are extremely versatile, loyal, intelligent, active, game, focussed, agile, courageous, good looking, affable, good humoured, outgoing, biddable, affectionate and have solid nerve. Further, they love people, including children and are very reliable.

By the way, why not switch to maltese? They're fluffy...right?

[Cosmolo]

Genuine question- why not switch to an am staff? Who have the same qualities?

[poodlefan]

Genuine question- why not switch to an am staff? Who have the same qualities?

Apparently not Cosmolo. Amstaffs are not working dogs. They are just pretty. Apparently neither they, nor any other bull breed are:

extremely versatile, loyal, intelligent, active, game, focussed, agile, courageous, good looking, affable, good humoured, outgoing, biddable, affectionate and have solid nerve. Further, they love people, including children and are very reliable

Or so Rhaps would have me believe. I'd have thought that a Bull Terrier or Amstaff would offer these qualities in a dog that is not a restricted breed.

I get that people don't want APBTs to become extinct. I don't get why people who don't want to abide by laws can't be encouraged to own a breed that doesn't require such a restricted lifestyle. I don't think its in any dog's interests to live that life but that life sure beats impoundment and euthanasia.

Edited January 21, 2009 by poodlefan

[Guest rhapsodical78]

Genuine question- why not switch to an am staff? Who have the same qualities?

I disagree. For a start, pit bulls have many lines, so they tend to look different, depending on which line you get. They may or may not look like amstaffs. Secondly, amstaffs have been bred away from their working abilities for decades. Do some people focus on ability as well than conformation? Possibly. But most VCA registered showies have to give conformation precedence. I guess it's a little like comparing working line shepherds and show line shepherds. Some people will argue that they're equal in ability, other people will claim that they're completely different dogs. I fall into category #2. I'm pretty sure a lot of people share my views.

Edited January 21, 2009 by rhapsodical78