saram Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) Although not the done thing I know we bought home two male goldens from the same litter and they have been absolutely fantastic. We have been working with them seperately and together and although they have a great bond with each other they are also part of the family and enjoy spending time apart. However some recent problems are arising. play fighting - they have always tossled and tumbled but the teeth are getting sharper and the play fights "seem" to be more aggressive. There is rarely any teeth barring (and if there is, it is quite quickly scolded) usually a result of too hard a bite. But the fights are more persistant and there is a lot of shaking and dragging going on. Also hoover hurt his leg mysteriously 12 days ago, quite a deep gash that required stitching and a drain and we are hoping it was not result of a puppy fight but have found no other explanation. Needless to say we are watching them all the time at the moment. Currently we won't allow the to fight in the house and any tossles are told "no" and they are seperated if it continues however makes the first move goes outside or into a crate or the both go into their crates. Any advice, ideas or help would be greatly appreciated Aggression over food - probably stemming from this problem both pups have developed a bit of territory aggression around food, particulary there chew bones/dental bones. As hoover had stitches in his leg and a drain they were seperated for the best part of 8 days whereas before they were always fed together. We also started giving them both chew bones as Hoover had to spend a lot of time in his crate recovering and the chew bones gave hm something to do. Today I gave them a bone and there was a lot of teeth barring and snapping going on. Dyson immediately backed off and was very wary and I told hoover off and handled the bone myself and touched his face etc while he was eating. Any other ideas to repress this new found aggression Thanks Edited January 21, 2009 by saram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) I think you're now finding out one of the reasons people recommend against two pups.. two of the same sex is even more challenging. A general rule of thumb is the closer two dogs are in age, size and gender, the more potential for hierachical disputes between them. You've matched all three factors. Are they desexed? I'd suggest you summon a decent professional trainer but in the interim, there are a few things you could try. How much training and exercise are they getting. If they remain the primary source of stimulation for each other, they will continue to focus their attention on one another? Do you do anything with them separately? If not, then I would suggest regular walks and other activities apart. If nothing else, this may lower stress levels for both dogs - this fighting would be highly stressful for both of them (and you of course) If one of the two does seem to be the more dominant, then don't interfere with that order. Feed the dominant one first etc. I'd also be feeding them completely separately, (introducing the Triangle of Temptation and making them wait for food) and never feeding bones etc together will keep things calmer. I also think that if the efforts of a trainer don't help, you should consider rehoming one of them. It's the last drastic decision but it sure beats one of them (or both) spending his life in a highly stressful, potentially injurious environment. Sometimes pack order is not resolved easily or without serious bloodshed, if at all. Edited January 17, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Poodlefan - thanks so much for your advice. Yes they have both just been desexed recently and yes they both have quite a bit of time alone, they are crated seperately and quite often one will be inside while the other is outside. We also spend time training them together as well as apart and at the moment they are being walked alone as we are still training them on the lead and quite often we take turns taking them out for drives and socialisation. I don't think there is any established dominence at the moment and most of the time they seem very comfortable with each other 90% of the time they are playing well together, it's only when it escalates that it concerns me. I will seek out a trainer to see if they have any advice for quieting down/ reducing the play fights so much Thanks again Sarah I think you're now finding out one of the reasons people recommend against two pups.. two of the same sex is even more challenging. A general rule of thumb is the closer two dogs are in age, size and gender, the more potential for hierachical disputes between them. You've matched all three factors. Are they desexed? I'd suggest you summon a decent professional trainer but in the interim, there are a few things you could try. How much training and exercise are they getting. If they remain the primary source of stimulation for each other, they will continue to focus their attention on one another? Do you do anything with them separately? If not, then I would suggest regular walks and other activities apart. If nothing else, this may lower stress levels for both dogs - this fighting would be highly stressful for both of them (and you of course) If one of the two does seem to be the more dominant, then don't interfere with that order. Feed the dominant one first etc. I'd also be feeding them completely separately, (introducing the Triangle of Temptation and making them wait for food) and never feeding bones etc together will keep things calmer. I also think that if the efforts of a trainer don't help, you should consider rehoming one of them. It's the last drastic decision but it sure beats one of them (or both) spending his life in a highly stressful, potentially injurious environment. Sometimes pack order is not resolved easily or without serious bloodshed, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FB Rescue_Adoption Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 As beautiful a breed as Goldens are, I think you will find that you have created an environment for ongoing issues here. Even watching them closely, there will always be potential for dominance games which could escalate into serious trouble for one or both of them. (I'm wondering what breeder would allow the homing of two male pups!!) I wish you all the best however, I can't help but think that one would be better off being rehomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Many breeders rehome 2 pups together and given the right personalities, management and training- it can work without issue. Good luck finding someone who can help you saram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 We did consult with quite a few different people including our vet before going ahead and decided that due to their complementry natures and the amount of time and effort we were prepared for that it would be something we were going to go for. Yes we did consider at the time the fact that we would have to rehome one if dominence/aggression became a problem but I would rather try solutions to fix/downgrade the problem rather than give up a great pup. Spo I guess I'm really looking for suggestions/ideas to help "train" them not to be aggressive with each other - does that make sense. I am looking into dog trainers but not having a huge amount of luck today, think everyone might still be on holidays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Saram- whereabouts are you located? A DOLer may be able to recommend someone for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thanks Cosmolo - We are in Townsville, Nth QLD. There are two main ones Bark busters and All sorts dog training and one private and the kennel club but the kennel club seems more of a obedience class rather than to deal with individual problems. Would love to hear any feedback on these ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganman Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 BB are a franchise and anyone can buy into it even if theyve never owned a dog.I dunno how much training there given before they start training but probably not a lot.I suppose some of the trainers might be ok but a lot might be pretty inexperienced.Im in Melbourne so carnt help with any trainers up there.Yeah 2 boys together from the same litter will be a handfull all right specially when they get older.Most people say get a girl and a boy but even then not at the same time and from the same litter. Good luck anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 paganman - thanks, I did notice that it was a franchise on their website and after talking to both companies I'm leaning more toward all sorts, the lady seemed much more interested (and more rerasonably priced too) OH wants to concentrate on using the TOT and cementing the pack structure to see if that solves anything as we have a feeling we have upset the balance when needing to crate and feed the dogs seperately while they were recovering, before forking out too many $$$$ we have had a few vet bills in the past two weeks and our back pocket needs a little time to recover, so we have look at getting her to come in Feb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just wanted to pop in and add we have had maj successes in just the past few days! Hooray! With being very strick on the fighting in the house and working on them sharing and being civil around food and treats my two little boys are lying beside each other happily swapping bones with each other just like they used to! We have also been working them a bit harder in the training stakes as well and filling up some kongs and keeping them really busy. Thank you all for all your suggestions and help it has been MUCH appreciated!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 working on them sharing and being civil around food and treats my two little boys are lying beside each other happily swapping bones with each other just like they used to! saram dogs aren't humans and sharing is not something that comes naturally, in fact 'not sharing' is a survival instinct and the only time you'll see any form of true altruism in a dog is in a bitch with very young puppies and even then it only lasts for a short time. Your 'two little boys' are actually two young dogs and even though they're happy to swap bones at the moment I certainly wouldn't count on them continuing to do so for the rest of their lives. Sure you might be lucky and you'll have two dogs that get on really well and are happy to share bones, but having two same sex siblings usually isn't easy and that's why a lot of breeders (including me) won't sell two to the same person. Personally I would always feed these two dogs separately and keep them apart when they have bones, it's a sensible precaution as fights often start over high value items like bones, pigs ears, favourite toys etc. and they can erupt out of nowhere with little or no warning. I have six dogs here and they all get on, but I would never leave them together when they have bones and they're always fed separately in their crates. I've had the odd fight now and again and every one of them except one has been triggered by food and caused by my lack of supervision. I would be extremely surprised if you don't get some form of rivalry between these dogs once they reach six to eight months. Even if one of them is openly submissive to the other it won't stop the more dominant pup of the two constantly putting him in his place to reinforce his position and sometimes one pup becomes so cowed and bullied that he leads a pretty miserable life. Hopefully this won't happen with your two and you won't have any problems at all, but you should be aware that they can occur and leaving bones and food for them to 'share' won't help the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Just wanted to pop in and add we have had maj successes in just the past few days! Hooray! With being very strick on the fighting in the house and working on them sharing and being civil around food and treats my two little boys are lying beside each other happily swapping bones with each other just like they used to! We have also been working them a bit harder in the training stakes as well and filling up some kongs and keeping them really busy.Thank you all for all your suggestions and help it has been MUCH appreciated!!!!!! Don't get complacent about this Saram. They are still maturing and I doubt this will be the last time this issue occurs. A bit of vigilence to watch for warning signs is a good idea. I agree with Miranda about food sharing. Feeding separately prevents resource guarding and destresses the issue for the dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saram Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 absolutely agree with you about being viligent about this, we were prepared for this when we took them on, I am just happy that the current issues have resolved. Yes we were putting the bones in their crates so they were apart while chewing them, they were sharaing them through the bars so I opened the door to see how they would react and they chose to sit together. They are always supervised at food/treat times so that we can ensure they both get the right amount and at the moment we are mostly doing TOT one at a time anyway but I do appreciate the warning. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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