Gundogs

[BrunoBella]

they're bred to work and focus quite intently on their job - hence what makes them useful as gun dogs.

A few old europeans had a couple of GSPs and they did a great job for most things they hunted. Quite hard dogs and great workers.

pity more people dont hunt with their gun dogs.

I have thought about taking my dogs hunting but I don't think I could shoot anything :cool:

My GSPs have a high drive for cats, possums, birds and butterflies. They have always been easy to train and bella is more intelligent than me most days :D

I had some problems in the first years because I was a newbie dog owner. I have learned so much from living with gsps.

Mine will play happily with chihuahuas and any other tiny dogs. As long as the dogs like to run and to rumble, they like them.

[BrunoBella]

As youngsters, some of them have the attention span of gnats. They learn fast but can be challenging to keep focussed - that's not insurmountable.

That's pretty much what I've had with both my two GSP's... they do grow up... eventually, and you are right in saying that it can be a bit exasperating! They stay overgrown puppies for a loooong time; some breeds/dogs longer than others. It's mostly the adolescent period, as younger pups, both were super easy to train, and very quick to learn.

Once they hit about 3-4 (or maybe 10 ), they grow up a bit and settle down some.

I notice that the gsps that are occassionally dumped are all 8-9mths old. 9 to 12 months was a nightmare for both of my dogs :D

Bruno is three and people still refer to him as a pup :cool: . One person was most surprised to hear that bruno was three years old

[FHRP]

Two of my gundogs compete in gundog Retrieving trials and been exposesd to duck hunting, and the GSP has done some quail hunting introduction. Both have highish prey drives and my younger boy (GSP) has over the top drive for retrieving, he goes absolutely nuts for the sport. I can imagine in inexperienced hands (not that I rate myself as terribly experienced) this drive could have been very hard to control and been his downfall, however it's this very drive that has made him the highly trainable and competitive dog he is, in retrieving and obedience. I must admit most of his first lessons in life were all about self control and he has certain rules applied to him that my other boys do not.

I hate sweeping statements made as excuses for training certain breeds. Knowing their original purpose can help understand why they do certain things and either determine how to train them, or accept that some things just aren't going to be possible. When instructing an obedience class, I certainly expect any gundog in the class capabale of being trained to a high degree, remebering that any dog is an individual anyway and can present it's own unique 'issues' Yes, they can be slow to mature and have the attention span of a gnat, but so can many of the kelpie/poodle/etc puppies!

[Monah]

I can only go on my own experiences. I have had 2 goldies, brothers, and my spin and viz. All have been extremely easy to train and fast on the pick up of training, especially the viz. The spin can be a bit stubborn :rolleyes: at times. As far as prey drive, they definately do have it, but all my dogs have lived with many cats at once, and birds. My spin has even had a pidgeon in her mouth for over 5 mins and I didn't know as her mouth is huge and hairy. Well, when I noticed and removed it, it only had slime on it so I wiped it and it flew off!! She is incredibly gentle and has a soft mouth. As far as I know, most gundogs do have very soft mouths. All of mine have loved to retrieve and always bring the item back.

I absolutely adore the vibrance, love of life, exuberance and yes, even the immaturity of gundogs, but as with any breed, if you allown them to be too silly, you will end up with a silly dog. They do need to learn selfcontrol. I still have a couple of issues with over excitement with my viz, but after playing with some younger vizs a week ago, I realise she has grown up a huge amount and is well on the way to being a 'big' girl.

I'm certainly no trainer, but they are incredibly responsive, love to please and work, and just generally plaster a big smile on your face for the whole day!! Everything in their life is a joy to behold and everything is done with a huge amount of interest and curiosity.

I wouldn't have them any other way.

FHRP, I may have to borrow some of those self control lessons from you

[Dogsfevr]

I don't know the thread that the original post is referring to, but I would rate gundogs as one of the more trainable groups of dogs! I find my boys easy and reliable to train. Gundogs were bred to work with man, not on their own and an uncontrolable prey drive is highly undesirable in a working gundog IMO.

I agree completely otherwise why are gundogs the most commonly used breed in the assistance/blind field.

Although i own the breeds that most uninformed have the most to say.Setters.

Most & it has been said by regular DOLERS that setters are stupid but known have ever owned them.

Irish excel at obedience,gordons excel in all dog sports.the English i would agree take a bit more time & i think the unfortunate part is some owners may have had adeaf/partially deaf English setter & not realized labelling them stupid.

The English i say are stars in the field but less eager to please for long periods.

The red/whites are great all rounders.

The biggest issue is alot f trainers carry breed snobbery & views .I have been dished it many times they just happened to pick the wrong bunnt to spin there talk.

All my setters live with little dogs & interact all the time with any dog ,I have owned gundogs for over 21 yrs from yanks to setters & bever had a hard one to train,its just a case of using the method that works.Being patient & not expecting to much to young.

During the growth stages i find the setters are very akward & as such sitting quickly etc etc is just not what there body is ready for & this applies to many large dogs

[rugerfly]

I don't know the thread that the original post is referring to, but I would rate gundogs as one of the more trainable groups of dogs! I find my boys easy and reliable to train. Gundogs were bred to work with man, not on their own and an uncontrolable prey drive is highly undesirable in a working gundog IMO.

Wasnt exactly about trainability, of course they are one of the most highly trainable groups because of how naughty they are. Its exactly that.

It was about naughtyness and control and learning how if you dont know

[rugerfly]

The only more challenging gundogs I've seen have either been adolescents or had "challenging" handlers.

I once took a repeat Beginners class of which every dog member was an adolescent gundog. As youngsters, some of them have the attention span of gnats. They learn fast but can be challenging to keep focussed - that's not insurmountable.

Some gundogs can be late maturing and that can be a bit exasperating for owners. A few can be stubborn or dominant - that's not limited to breed.

I'm sure there are some right drongo gundogs around but I haven't met one.

Exactly.

[rugerfly]

Ruger recently said in a thread that unless we own a gundog we won't know what they like

Can someone explain the traits they have which make them harder to train or the inability to get reliable commands? I don't know much about gundogs. I assume they have a decent level of prey drive?

Plus, Midol you trouble maker you, I wasnt referring to how hard it is to train them. Its EASY when you know how.

Dont quote me as saying that, it was all about some git saying blindly about keeping dogs under control.

In reference to trainability, Fly had her CD title in under twelve months of age, placing first, second and third in a row.

High prey drive makes competition easy. Sometimes 'social' situations are different. Same with every dog.

[Just Midol]

Ruger recently said in a thread that unless we own a gundog we won't know what they like

Can someone explain the traits they have which make them harder to train or the inability to get reliable commands? I don't know much about gundogs. I assume they have a decent level of prey drive?

Plus, Midol you trouble maker you, I wasnt referring to how hard it is to train them. Its EASY when you know how.

I know, I wanted to know what drives they had which made them behave poorly sometimes.

[Snowysal]

Same for any breed and you really do have to live with them to understand. We have never had them before but Dust Angel is addicted now. One of ours is incredibly responsive to training and the other - due to a poor start in life is not so much

Lunar will escape at every opportunity and make opportunities when she can - to go hunting ducks and birds.

I wouldnt trust either of them with any type of bird.

SMF have been at our place (in separate areas 2 fosters) but I wouldnt have left Lunar alone with them but would have trusted Sienna - she a very sociable dog.

They live indorrs/outdoors with 6 cats and have never even tried to hurt any of them.They actually share beds on occasion.

Sienna is VERY strong willed and has being trying to assert herself over me since we got her. She accepts DA as the leader but we continued to struglle until last weeks revelations.

[Just Midol]

They sound similar to sibes, except sibes are pretty and most gundogs aren't

[FHRP]

I'd rate a gundog far higher for trainability than a sibe. I'd also rate a gundog far better looking

[poodlefan]

I'd rate a gundog far higher for trainability than a sibe. I'd also rate a gundog far better looking

So would most people with experience in training dogs/handlers I reckon (well at least the trainability rating anyway :wink: ). This is not a matter of the intelligence of the dogs concerned but what they've been selectively bred to do.

Gundogs work under human direction. They have been bred to focus on and respond to handler cues. The hunt starts and stops when the handler says it does, the dog retrieves the ducks in the order the handler directs etc.

A sled dog who obeys a a handler command to go forward when it knows a crevasse is there is a dead sled dog. They have been selected, both by man and by natural selection to think for themselves.

If a sled dog can't see the point in doing something its handler directs, it may not. Gundogs can blow you off but they don't seem to have the degree of independent thought that dogs bred to think for themselves or to work beyond the reach of handler direction can. Terriers can be an example of the latter. A dog bred to go to ground cannot rely solely on human cues.

I usually tell novice handlers to learn about the breed they have and the job it may have had. Understanding how we've developed breeds to think can help us to understand what motivates them.

There's a very good reason that gundogs and herding breeds are used for guide dog work Midol.

Edited January 22, 2009 by poodlefan

[Kaffy Magee]

After working in a boarding kennel I have had many breeds come through. I started a dislike for some breeds of dog and it wasnt until recently that i realised they are all gundogs. They just came across as "nutty". Please dont take offence because i believe in their family environment and more so in a "working" environment they probably dont behave quite the same way as they do in the kennels. Mind you i have some gundogs in that have been very calm and quiet and well behaved. Its a bit like my dobie i suppose, he has alot of energy/drive and often drives me nuts but I know he will be best when "working".

[VJB]

I would think working at a boarding kennel, you are not going to experience the dog in it's natural state.. (as you explained). Gundogs are ........... words cannot describe.......... They are loyal, loving and beautiful

dogs, and I think any dog can come across as "nutty". I am not partial to very tiny breeds, so its a preference thing I guess. I love Gundog though.... obviously.

Edited January 22, 2009 by vjb

[FHRP]

This is not a matter of the intelligence of the dogs concerned but what they've been selectively bred to do.

I don't think intelligence of the breeds was ever the focus of this thread. I certainly don't link intelligence entirely with trainability.

[poodlefan]

This is not a matter of the intelligence of the dogs concerned but what they've been selectively bred to do.

I don't think intelligence of the breeds was ever the focus of this thread. I certainly don't link intelligence entirely with trainability.

I know you don't FHRP but some people think less trainable dogs are dumb and I wanted to make sure people understood that wasn't my belief.

Edited January 22, 2009 by poodlefan

[FHRP]

This is not a matter of the intelligence of the dogs concerned but what they've been selectively bred to do.

I don't think intelligence of the breeds was ever the focus of this thread. I certainly don't link intelligence entirely with trainability.

I know you don't FHRP but some people think less trainable dogs are dumb and I wanted to make sure people understood that wasn't my belief.

OK, just didn't see that happening in this thread and as you'd stated it after directly quoting me, thought I'd point out I never thought it either

Edited January 22, 2009 by FHRP

[SparkyTansy]

I'm with FHRP - Mort is easy to train once you get him to focus (but he is only 6 months old) - he likes to learn and to be kept busy and he loves to get things right and once he knows the commands he will do them like a shot when you say them to him .... I think Gundogs (although I can only speak for 1 GSP here) are a very intelligent group as such (even though they do some stoopid things!) I just wish mine would use his powers for good instead of evil

.

When i think of all my dogs, I have to agree with this statement... their high intelligence allows them to pick and choose how they want to behave... certain gundogs are like this more than others...

I don't know the thread that the original post is referring to, but I would rate gundogs as one of the more trainable groups of dogs! I find my boys easy and reliable to train. Gundogs were bred to work with man, not on their own and an uncontrolable prey drive is highly undesirable in a working gundog IMO.

I agree completely otherwise why are gundogs the most commonly used breed in the assistance/blind field.

Although i own the breeds that most uninformed have the most to say.Setters.

Most & it has been said by regular DOLERS that setters are stupid but known have ever owned them.

Irish excel at obedience,gordons excel in all dog sports.the English i would agree take a bit more time & i think the unfortunate part is some owners may have had adeaf/partially deaf English setter & not realized labelling them stupid.

The English i say are stars in the field but less eager to please for long periods.

The red/whites are great all rounders.

The biggest issue is alot f trainers carry breed snobbery & views .I have been dished it many times they just happened to pick the wrong bunnt to spin there talk.

All my setters live with little dogs & interact all the time with any dog ,I have owned gundogs for over 21 yrs from yanks to setters & bever had a hard one to train,its just a case of using the method that works.Being patient & not expecting to much to young.

During the growth stages i find the setters are very akward & as such sitting quickly etc etc is just not what there body is ready for & this applies to many large dogs

Of course I agree here, owning English Setters... They take a lot of work because they are less eager to please. Also the setters, although asked to work for the owner, tend to have that slightly more independent streak due to the nature of their job... trained to range out and find the birds and then wait for the owner to see/flush them tells me that they have to use their own brains and control their prey drive to a degree. When i look at the difference between my utility gundog (weim) and my setter, i can see the huge difference.. of course, weims were originally bred to bring down large game so their drive is going to be high... and we must work harder to control it... My English setter was very successful at obedience, however my younger boy, not so much, but i believe he would excel in the field, to a degree (would never be as good as the field type setters)

I think, with gundogs, that ability to switch off the drive or curtail it to our needs is evident... they rely so hugely on Human direction and their desire to please is much higher...

As for GSP's and being retrieving nuts, i couldn't agree more... I have never seen another breed with that much desire to retrieve... not even the retrieving breeds seem to have that same crazy desire.

totally agree with the puppy brain... although in saying that both my ES grew up at about 2years... i am currently wondering if the weim will ever grow up, but i wouldnt have it any other way...

And... Gundogs are CLEARLY better looking than sibes... hands down... i believe the term MELTING EXPRESSION was a term designed just for gundogs

[2tollers]

I'd rate a gundog far higher for trainability than a sibe. I'd also rate a gundog far better looking :D

Hell yeh.

I'm probably way out of my depth being involved in this discussion but here's my opinion on a couple of things. I add to these and change them often.

I have my 2 Tollers and one of them competes in flyball. The dog which competes has always been easy to train as long as you know what motivates him. He won't do anything unless there's something in it for him (food, game). I didn't get my other Toller until she was 5 years old and she'd had absolutely no training. She's quite different in that, although she works well for food, she likes to please as well.

She has fantastic drive and I can trust her with any other dog(small or young pups) but when it comes to cats, birds, lizards, rabbits or any other critter that moves, she's more than happy to dispose of them. When we brought our 9 week old kitten home our male was scared of it and our bitch wanted to kill it. It took a couple of weeks of VERY careful supervision and introductions and now there's no problem at all but she'd love to kill any other cat.

Todd competes in flyball for the love of retrieving and his treat at the end. It's all a big game and if something nearby looks more interesting, he's gone.

I also run a Kelpie for someone in flyball and they are so different. The Kelpie runs because that's his job and he's very serious about it. He likes his food but there's no need to use it and he runs his little heart out because that's his purpose in life and would never leave his post.

BTW Kelpie is fast and Toller is a cruiser (also older).