Seita Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Hi, I've been working on scent discimination with my dog for about 2 weeks now using Deborah Jones' Click'n'Sniff method. I'm only working with 2 metal articles at this stage but have noticed 2 problems with my girl. Firstly she bolts to the mat at 100 miles an hour (not really a problem) but she then grabs the first article she sees - does anyone have any suggestions on how to get her to sniff first before grabbing? The second problem stems from the first, after she's grabbed the first article she looks for others and then puts the first down, picks up the second, puts it down and picks up the first again - she sometimes does this over and over 'tasting' to see which one is right. If she does this too many times she seems to get confused and just grabs one and brings it back. How can I get her to sniff instead of taste? I'm not using overly smelly food intentionally and trying not to put too much on the article that I want her to retrieve to discourage her from tasting it but I think she believes the exercise is all about taste discrimination! The funny thing is if she brings me back the wrong one and I give her a nrm she will go back to the mat and sniff to check if there are any other articles before she brings me the correct one (and there is only two). Has anyone else encountered similar problems and does anyone have any suggestions for slowing her down enough to sniff before grabbing and to stop her from tasting the articles? Edited April 16, 2009 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) haha - ahhh the memories of teaching scent discrim! Don't worry - it's quite common and I went through similar probs. For problem #1 - have you tried a tie down mat? This can help if your name isn't "Leo" and you become so fixated on the tie downs that he pulls it out anyways ;) A lot of people have found this helped... but make sure you move ahead fast as some dogs will be cued by other things other than scent (eg: the right one is the one that moves, not the ones that don't). It's great that she is so eager to get there I know exactly what you mean - Leo is sooo eager about it he knocks all of the articles into the middle making it super dooper hard for him to find the right one You will find that as she gets better at it - she will taste less and use her mouth more. I was told not to worry about this and they were right - the more confident he gets the less he will mouth and the more he will scent with his nose. He used to do exactly the same chopping and changing between articles, and now has a nice confident scent on him where he will work the full mat to find the right one (mind you we haven't practiced since before christmas!) Sounds like everything is going on track to me. If you find she is still not really scenting - perhaps go back a step, or switch to an easier article such as wood, which holds our scent a little better PS - I used the dog scouts training method for scent discrim (don't have the link with me, but someone else might be able to provide it ) PSS - it's also not very helpful with the dog dislodges the mat and tries to bring you back the whole thing ;). Sometimes dropping out the NRM can help - I found leo made great improvements once I dropped it, even though he was responding well to the NRM (going back to the mat and finding the right one). Leo also went through a stage of simply bringing back the first one he sees until I ended up with about 5 woods at my feet.... ahh it's all fun and games and you go up and down like a yo-yo Edited January 16, 2009 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) My suggestions is to not use a mat! I would then say I would never use tiedowns because the dogs learn very quickly which articles and tied and which aren't. Try putting out some things that don't look like scent articles eg cans of food, along with one scent article and see what she does. When she is reliably bringing back the scent article, leave the cans out there and add another scent article and see what she does. Edited January 16, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Waves at Ptolomy - oh yes Ness use to do the grabbing the first article bit even when she knew what she was doing but out of stress (as we would work through extending the ratio of number of finds to rewards). When we stayed with Ptolomy she put out a truckload of cans and would place the article out. I have to say I then did this a few times with her and Ness is so much better with the grabbing response. In fact at the last trial she searched for an extraodinary length of time and instead of snatching and returning with any old one she kept looking until she found the correct one and returned . Agree about not using tie downs. I tried tie downs with Ness and she would nudge to find the one that wasn't tied or was so determined about retrieving a tied one that she would pull the tie down off and retrieve the article anyway. Sue H suggested to place objects in long grass and have the dog find them (not just articles) so that they understand they are having to use their nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yay! So i'm not the only one with a weird dog!! I was working her on the grass and actually she was using her nose a bit more then but she was searching the whole yard for the articles so I switched to the mat so she would have a more defined boundary to search. Do you think I should switch back to working on the grass and just let her search far and wide? I also know about the tie down method and did think about using it but I'm fairly certain she'll learn to test which ones are tied down. The dog scouts method is basically the same as the method I'm using The cans idea is good I'll definitely give that a shot. What if I put out the scented metal article and an unscented wood or leather article do you think that would help her to differentiate a bit more? Anyway, thanks so much for the ideas I feel a bit more knowledgeable about training this now (first UD dog ever!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Are you letting the dog see you put the article out - if she is searching the back yard - I would say she definitely has no idea what she is suppose to bring back. I wouldn't be putting out woods and leathers yet since she doesn't understand the game of bringing back the one that smells like you. You will find that if a dog is going to chew articles its more likely to be a wood or a leather and so far I have found that leathers are usually the hardest of the articles for the dog to find. Let us know how you get on - good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yay! So i'm not the only one with a weird dog!! Definitely not - I have a similar thread a few pages back asking for advice and I still haven't been able to crack it (though I've only tried it a max of 2 times a week so I don't push it while she still doesn't understand). I might give the cans idea a go on the weekend, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Yay! So i'm not the only one with a weird dog!! Definitely not - I have a similar thread a few pages back asking for advice and I still haven't been able to crack it (though I've only tried it a max of 2 times a week so I don't push it while she still doesn't understand). I might give the cans idea a go on the weekend, though! Katie don't wait for the weekend - go give it a go now - put 4 cans out - stand them upright and 1 scent article and send her to fetch. Do this twice and reward and then add a second non scent scent article, try again and let us know what happens. It might be best if you get somebody else to put the cans out or use a towel to pick them up and place them out. Edited January 16, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Are you letting the dog see you put the article out - if she is searching the back yard - I would say she definitely has no idea what she is suppose to bring back.I wouldn't be putting out woods and leathers yet since she doesn't understand the game of bringing back the one that smells like you. You will find that if a dog is going to chew articles its more likely to be a wood or a leather and so far I have found that leathers are usually the hardest of the articles for the dog to find. Let us know how you get on - good luck! She sees where I put it but then runs out and doubts herself and searches everywhere else before coming back to the articles! She's a funny one this one! I'll move her back onto the grass tomorrow with the cans and see what she does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Katie don't wait for the weekend - go give it a go now - put 4 cans out - stand them upright and 1 scent article and send her to fetch. Do this twice and reward and then add a second non scent scent article, try again and let us know what happens. It might be best if you get somebody else to put the cans out or use a towel to pick them up and place them out. Only just saw this, had family round for dinner all night and now it's almost midnight Will definitely give it a go tomorrow then and report back Thank goodness for those extra metal articles cos we went through a few last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Well I tried the cans today and when it was just the one scented article with the four cans she just bolted out grabbed the article and brought it back. She did the same when I put an unscented article out amoung the cans but still didn't sniff. She's just grabbing the one she sees me put out there. I think I'll give her a few days' break before trying again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Well I tried the cans today and when it was just the one scented article with the four cans she just bolted out grabbed the article and brought it back. She did the same when I put an unscented article out amoung the cans but still didn't sniff. She's just grabbing the one she sees me put out there. I think I'll give her a few days' break before trying again. When there is just one there it is easy - at some point usually when there is 3 or 4 articles out there - they stop and start sniffing - keep going for another day or two and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 The cans seemed to work for us! Great suggestion, Ptolomy!! I updated my scent help thread with how it went so as not to hijack this one with our progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 The cans seemed to work for us! Great suggestion, Ptolomy!! I updated my scent help thread with how it went so as not to hijack this one with our progress It's ok you can hijack it's about the same topic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well after giving Ella 2 days break I tried the cans again today. Started with 4 cans and 1 scented article which she got right. I added an unscented article she got it wrong on the first try but I gave her another shot and she got it right. So I added another article and she got it right again so I added another one (now at 4 unscented) and she got it right! I did that one more time before taking out the cans and putting 5 articles out (1 scented). She got it right the first time, brought the wrong one back on the 2nd and 3rd times but when I ignored her she went back and got the right one both times. I tried 2 more times which she got right both times! 3 out of 5 isn't bad I think! I'm not sure it's a real 'lightbulb' moment but it's definitely given me the encouragement I needed to keep training this! She is still grabbing the first one she sees but then sniffs others while carrying the first which she will trade for others until she is satisfied with the one she's picked. She's also still tasting them and she will pick up every article out there which is probably why she brings the wrong one back every so often (it has the scent on it cos she put it on the article!). But she does look like she's getting more confident because when she is carrying one she will sniff the others first before putting the one in her mouth down and picking up another. This whole pick up and trade articles thing makes it really hard to tell which is the right one though! I have to watch the right article very very carefully because she'll put others down right next to each other and move articles all over the place! Aside from the tie down method is there some way to discourage her from picking up the first one she sees? Or do you think that as she gets better with the sniffing bit she'll feel less inclined to grab one immediately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great news seita I also found there was a point where more was better for Leo - ie: if I had 2-3 he wouldn't scent properly but if I had 5-7 he would scent.... all takes time though I'm not sure of any other methods other than tie down, but I found that Loopy Leo found he didn't want to pick the others up once he gained confidence Like you - I'm very green too ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great news seita I also found there was a point where more was better for Leo - ie: if I had 2-3 he wouldn't scent properly but if I had 5-7 he would scent.... all takes time though :p I'm not sure of any other methods other than tie down, but I found that Loopy Leo found he didn't want to pick the others up once he gained confidence Like you - I'm very green too That's kind of what I'm expecting. I figure that as she gets better at finding the right one she'll start using her nose more than her mouth. And when I start decreasing the amount of food scent on the article she'll have to really start using her nose but that won't be for some time I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 From memory - I think with the dog scout method if the dog brings the wrong article back or pick up the wrong one you are supposed to remove it and not use it again that session. Which means you need a truck load of articles. I would go back to using the cans again when you do your next session, and then remove them again when you have a few articles down. I just think the cans tend to stop the snatch and grab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thats why I have some stupidly crazy number of sets out airing isn't it Ptolomy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I will use the cans again but I think I need bigger heavier ones cos she just bowls past the current ones and grabs the articles, they don't slow her down at all!!! I might need to get myself some of those catering sized 1.5L cans!!! I am currently reusing articles if she does bring back the wrong one but only once, if she brings me the same one back I remove it. If I had to remove every article she picks up I'd never have any to use cos she picks them all up! If I put 10 articles out then she'd probably pick up every one of them! But I have just ordered another full set plus a set of just metals because one of mine is missing one so that will make 19 metal articles in total once they arrive. I've got 2 sets already so I think that will be enough!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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