dogon Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 My 11 weeker is totally in to fetching a toy but the tussle over it when he brings it back seems to be his favourite part of the game. The thing that I'm not sure about is the growling. He shows a lot of determination to hang on to it which makes me think that the game is not in the fetch but in the tug of war that results. At first I didn't worry so much because I was just interested in getting him to understated the concept of fetch and retrieve but now I'm worried that I'm encouraging a bad habit. When he plays with his favourite fluffy toy he growls too. I've assumed that this is entirely normal and healthy behaviour for a pup. However sometimes he can lunge and bite at a toy (any toy when it involves a fetch game). I always terminate the game when he does this though. What I do is offer him a treat in exchange for the toy and this does work. But only if there is a treat in the bargain. Otherwise he growls and tugs. I usually don't let him win - only sometimes. Am I encouraging a bad habit? Should I be offering a treat? How long do I have to be offering a treat in exchange for the toy before he gives it back readily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R00 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) My 11 weeker is totally in to fetching a toy but the tussle over it when he brings it back seems to be his favourite part of the game. The thing that I'm not sure about is the growling. He shows a lot of determination to hang on to it which makes me think that the game is not in the fetch but in the tug of war that results.At first I didn't worry so much because I was just interested in getting him to understated the concept of fetch and retrieve but now I'm worried that I'm encouraging a bad habit. When he plays with his favourite fluffy toy he growls too. I've assumed that this is entirely normal and healthy behaviour for a pup. However sometimes he can lunge and bite at a toy (any toy when it involves a fetch game). I always terminate the game when he does this though. What I do is offer him a treat in exchange for the toy and this does work. But only if there is a treat in the bargain. Otherwise he growls and tugs. I usually don't let him win - only sometimes. Am I encouraging a bad habit? Should I be offering a treat? How long do I have to be offering a treat in exchange for the toy before he gives it back readily? IMO you have a winner here, a perfect dog to train in prey drive. It would be well worth your time and effort to at least drop either Steve at K9 an email or one of the other trainers that frequent this forum. Steve is the guy who wrote the triangle of temptation (posted at the very top of the training forum) I have done a few one on one sessions with him and they were well worth the money. Basically the thing to do at this early stage is to 'control' the game, let the dog tug (but don't throw the toy away first - you don't want the retrieving bit becoming the reward) get the dog to tug using a command then stop it by letting the toy go limp and providing a command i.e 'enough' (still holding it) once the dog relaxes and realises the game has stopped he will let go at this stage you restart it. The end result over time is a dog who sees the tug or the toy in action as the reward for doing something. It is similar to seeing the focus a dog has with its owner who is throwing a ball. This is the very quick and dirty outline as I don't have much time this morning. Cheers Roo ETA; Stop with the food treat ASAP. You want the dog to see the game of tug as his reward. If you use both you will be training in food drive and prey drive, it will more than likely end up with confusion. The dog will do something thinking he will be getting 'paid' and if he is expecting food and you give him a tug or vice versa then he will be unsure what the pay off is and will be unsure whether he can be bothered or not. The key is to ensure the dog is very clear what the reward is. Edited January 14, 2009 by Roo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie_Pup Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) My first thought would be to stop I guess thats where we all very in our opinions though We didn't play this game with Halle for two reasons... it was too easy for us to give up and let her win just to end the game. This was only going to spur her on even more and make an already overly confident pup even more confident (and seemingly in charge). Secondly, she used to get down and growl, and if it slipped, she'd snap at it again, sometimes narrowly missing her teeth. When she growled at us, she got a big stern "UGH!!!" and we literally snatched the toy from her and stopped play for about 1min, with our backs turned to her. Then resumed again. If we had to do that 3 times, the game was over for good. I guess it all depends what you want in your dog and what you want them to learn-for us it was totally undesirable behaviour so we stopped it very quickly. You could also start using a word like "give" or "mine" to help him learn to drop something to give to you.. he will learn eventually and it doesnt hurt to start noise association (I say noise because dogs don't understand words, they associate noise, which is our words, to the action required LOL) early on Edited January 14, 2009 by Kelpie_Pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 He sounds pretty keen What is he like with other things sit. come,etc? IMO you maybe would prefer to teach your pup to calmly "give' first ... have him sitting. on leash perhaps... give him a (low value,to start with) toy . then ask him to give.... and gently open his mouth and take the toy.. praising him. and offering a treat. When he is entirely comfortable with the fact that if he gives you something, then he will get a reward... THEN start on 'fetch' This is just my opinion... I have never enjoyed playing tug or anything with my dogs..and as they are not going to be competing in anything, or learning anything formal.. don't need to use their 'drive' (don't much like high drive dogs, anyway ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 It depends on what you want. I would agree with Roo and use the prey drive to your advantage with training. Read up on it anyway so you understand what it is and what you are dealing with. Then you can decide whether to use it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R00 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 IMO if your dog is displaying a high level of prey drive you may as well use it, or you may end up with problems down the track as you try and suppress it. The dog will find other ways to satisfy its desire for drive. Chewing stuff, chasing stuff or just being a pain in the back side from frustration Just my view Roo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) ok, wow, lots to think about here. Initially when I look at TOT it appears to me to be a fairly fancy way of describing positive reinforcement as training method. Am I wrong? I really would like to have a dog as a companion - not as a working dog or an agility/obedience competition dog. However I can see what Kavik and roo are saying about using a strength in my dog to my advantage. The problem is this; I don't really like the aggression that tug seems to elicit in Rodney. He growls whenever he is given a toy, shakes it and trots away to 'devour' it. He's like a lion in this sense. If Rodney is a 'high drive' dog then I guess I should play to it as a strength but I worry that I might be encouraging aggression. He's a little cocker spaniel and my puppy school teacher horrified me by saying that this would be a worry in this breed and that I shouldn't encourage it. I guess there are a variety of opinions out there but, being a novice, I don't want to stuff up. Should I suppress it or play it? that is the question! bearing in mind that I'm a novice. Edited January 14, 2009 by dogon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R00 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Drop K9 force an email, you need to be aware of the difference in agression and competitive play. It is during this early period that you get the dog you want. The time you put into learning about training methods etc will be well spent. I highly reccommend using the TOT for the very simple reason that it teaches the dog to tie out and not carry on like a pork chop and will help teach the dog that YOU provide all the enjoyment in his world, not others andnot other dogs. The idea is that he never gets the toy to take away and "attack" you are to use it as a reward - the game is the reward. It has nothing to do with agility or getting a working dog, just another way to reward the dog, no different to giving a treat when your dog obeys a command. You give him a game of tug for 5 secs as the reward. Much easier keeping a small tug toy in your pocket than a pocket full of nibbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 TOT is about teaching your dog self control and seeing you as the one who controls resources, as you don't release the dog until it is looking at you. I have not perfected the whole training in drive thing myself but am having good fun working on it. Some dogs growl and with some dogs this is not a problem. Only one of my dogs will growl when tugging - she is the oldest and I did not encourage tugging when she was little as I didn't know about drive training then. The others don't growl. Even if you don't want to compete it is a fun and interactive way to train, but it is physically demanding (for you and the dog) and high energy. I would have a read through the training in drive threads in the training forum which will explain what it is and then decide if you like the sound of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) IMO if your dog is displaying a high level of prey drive you may as well use it, or you may end up with problems down the track as you try and suppress it. The dog will find other ways to satisfy its desire for drive. Chewing stuff, chasing stuff or just being a pain in the back side from frustration :rolleyes: Edited January 15, 2009 by laffi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 I highly reccommend using the TOT for the very simple reason that it teaches the dog to tie out and not carry on like a pork chop and will help teach the dog that YOU provide all the enjoyment in his world, not others andnot other dogs. Great phrase:rofl: being a pork chop It's what puppies do!!! Ok, I'll take your advice and go look at training in drive threads - better to be informed than to bury my head in the sand. Cheers guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Check out this link for some videos & text on tug games & how to play tug with rules. http://www.dogstardaily.com/search/node/tug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Check out this link for some videos & text on tug games & how to play tug with rules.http://www.dogstardaily.com/search/node/tug Very very helpful, thanks :rolleyes: I'll start tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Oh, and did I mention that I'm in awe of Dunbar - what a guy and those dogs, so cool My Rodney is definitely a tug freak - he's lying at my feet fast asleep whilst gripping his fluffy duckie with jaws of steal. bless him :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I highly reccommend using the TOT for the very simple reason that it teaches the dog to tie out and not carry on like a pork chop and will help teach the dog that YOU provide all the enjoyment in his world, not others andnot other dogs. my bold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BittyMooPeeb Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hi dogon, I dont know if I missed it, but what breed is your dog? My 12 week old toy breed pup behaves exactly as you have described. I am elated as it can be hard to get a toy breed to enjoy tug, and I do want to obedience and agility train him. *All* of my dogs growl and get excited when we play. They also 'kill' toys and have great fun doing it. I teach a 'give' command, and to make sure it is always effective, I treat 50% of the time even long after they have learned what to do. It might be different with your pup if he has a higher desire for tug, but if my pup doesnt 'give' the tug toy when I ask him to, I let the toy go limp until he lets go (which he always does because the game is boring then) Coudl you play both tug and fetch with different toys so that he gets to know the difference? Try a ball for fetch so that he cant play tug with it easily. Occasionally get him to return it to you by offering something darn good in exchange (a yummy treat). I let mine go off with the toy and play with it if they want, but if you prefer it to always be returned to you, always offer the exchange. Also teach a word that tells him he can tug. Start a tug game and use the word. Once he knows it, if he tries to get the toy without you having given the tug word, hold the toy to you and turn around - ignore him for a minute (dont ignore him for too long, he will just get frustrated). Then turn around and give him the tug command for a game. He should learn that if he tries to play without being told he can, you will take the toy away and ignore him. Good luck :-). Even if you dont want to do dog sports, having a dog that regards a tug game as a reward is very handy, as you will want to teach him basic obedience - sit, stay, come etc, and you will be able to use a game to reward him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks BMP Great advice. Rodney is a cocker spaniel. I can't tell you how many people go 'ahh' in a knowing way when I say that I'm starting to wonder if I have invited the bride of Frankenstein to share my home. I digress. So anyway, I watched the video posted by luvsdogs in this thread and I'm using 'thank you' as a give signal and 'take it' as a play tug signal. It's similar to what you do and it's working a treat I use 'off' to make him wait before i give him the toy. It's so funny to watch him squirm but he manages to follow the 'off' command well. I think I'll work on this aspect before I move on to fetch. That makes sense to me and TBO he only likes the tug part it seems. His favourite toy in all the world is a fluffy duck so I'm currently figuring out creative ways to use it to my advantage. Normally I kick it to him whenecer he's biting my leg but maybe I should control the use of it a bit more. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Normally I kick it to him whenecer he's biting my leg so he knows to get his fluffy duck- he bites you on the leg ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 As Persphone said, that is just rewarding him for biting your leg! An easy way to play fetch it to have 2 identical toys, so when pup brings back the first toy, you are already busy playing with the spare toy - this makes your toy the best one to have and he will drop the one he has. Then you throw the one you have and do the exchange while he is chasing your toy. In time you can encorage him to give you the first toy instead of just dropping it. Tug is a great game, in moderation. I don't let the dog get to excited while playing it and always end it with a few 'drop it' and 'take it'. Ending the game while the pup is still keen for it to continue. Be careful not to pull to much as you don't want to damage the growing jaw or misalign the teeth. BTW. cockers are great dogs. Mine was a black and white bitch whose favourite game was to drop a tennis ball infront of the lawn mower as she knew we would have to throw the ball out of the way to continue mowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Dogon, Roo has hit the nail on the head and given some very good advice.As Roo said you have a great tool there to use to train your dog.By the way perfectly normal behaviour and good to see a dog with drive. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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