Choker Chains

[Just Midol]

Honestly, from your post, you're dog is being corrected. If its a martingale and you don't pull but he reaches the end of the lead then he is self correcting himself.

[BigBen]

Obviously... I didn't say I didn't correct him, just that I don't yank on the lead, due to my shoulder problems.

[Just Midol]

Obviously... I didn't say I didn't correct him, just that I don't yank on the lead, due to my shoulder problems.

Ohhh, yes, that'd make more sense. From the way you worded your posts it sounded as though you were doing the "It's not a correction unless I correct him" thing that some positive trainers do.

btw, self correcting causes dogs to get collar smart. You'd really be better off using a prong or e-collar. Prongs are like power steering and e-collars you need a thumb

Edited January 15, 2009 by Just Midol

[corvus]

I know someone in the states that found herself with a large GSD that had never been taught not to pull. She's a small person and has bad shoulders, so she got a prong as a last resort and it probably saved her from a shoulder operation! She says today she would try a no-pull harness or head collar first, but they weren't around when she had this problem.

[BigBen]

Obviously... I didn't say I didn't correct him, just that I don't yank on the lead, due to my shoulder problems.

Ohhh, yes, that'd make more sense. From the way you worded your posts it sounded as though you were doing the "It's not a correction unless I correct him" thing that some positive trainers do.

btw, self correcting causes dogs to get collar smart. You'd really be better off using a prong or e-collar. Prongs are like power steering and e-collars you need a thumb

I believe prong collars are illegal here in Queensland, but if I need additional help with Ben, I'll get it... At the moment, he's doing great...

[BigBen]

I know someone in the states that found herself with a large GSD that had never been taught not to pull. She's a small person and has bad shoulders, so she got a prong as a last resort and it probably saved her from a shoulder operation! She says today she would try a no-pull harness or head collar first, but they weren't around when she had this problem.

When I got a dog, when I first married, my father suggested in prong collar... My dog never needed one - they were legal in Denmark in the 70's - He wanted to train him for me, but seeing what he tried to do to him, I said NO, THANK YOU! He was a great dog, but unfortunately had to be put down, because I didn't recognise the fact, that dogs don't generalise.;

Ben is doing great on his modified martingale collar.. I do NOT allow him to pull any more than my hand can hold.. or two...

[Erny]

I believe prong collars are illegal here in Queensland ...

TMK, they are not illegal. There may be some dog schools who don't permit them, but nothing to do with "law".

Victoria is the only State which has banned the use of the PPCollar.

[dancinbcs]

Having owned trained, trialled, shown and bred BCs for over 25 years, I have tried many training methods. A check chain on a puppy in the hands of someone who does not know how to use it properly is a disaster. BCs are usually really easy to train with positive re-enforcement and check chains are rarely needed. The only time I use them now is on trained dogs in the show ring as lightweight check chains are the easiest to manage as far as handling goes. The chain is rarely tightened and just hangs around the neck. Occasionally trained dogs who have decided to be obnoxious for some reason will require checking to remind them of their manners and I did once use a check chain on a baby at his first show because he was so over the top we couldn't get his attention any other way but he was one tough puppy.

I would definitely not start training a BC on a check chain and no matter what the rules are it is your dog and you can do whatever you feel is right. I never train a puppy for more than about 10 minutes in a class as they become bored very quickly. I would go along to the training without the dog, check it out and then decide if it looks possible to join without the check chain. If training with a class DO NOT do the endless heeling drills, concentrate on positions and stays and only do heeling for a couple of minutes at a time. Simply step out of the class and watch until they do something more interesting and then join back in. Also do not work next to anyone who yells at their dog as your sensitive BC will be badly affected by this.

The last couple of dogs that I obedience trained were trained at the club grounds in the presence of the the other dogs but not in a class unless it was for stays or stand for examination. This worked far better than being in the class.

The idea about a private trainer may be better option and have you tried asking the breeder of your puppy for advice?

My method of training dogs to heel is to train them in the yard without a lead but using food or toys until they will heel in a relaxed manner. Then simply hang

a loose lead on the collar and continue with the food or toy, occasionally putting a little pressure on the lead to teach them to stop if the lead tightens. This teaches them to walk nicely at heel and they never learn to pull on a lead as it is only there to stop them wandering off, not to actually lead them.

Good luck with your lovely baby.

[MayaBC]

Thanks dancinbcs, and everyone who has replied. I am leaning more and more away from going to this dog obedience class. I have heard from other people who have said that this particular class only allows the use of choker chains, but I really need to ask her. I might even get hubby to ring her as a new customer (she doesn't know him) and get him to ask, that way I can take more time to make the decision rather than when I am on the phone to her.

I walked the pup for the first time on the road in the town last night, with a friend and her dog who had been to this class. She said that she was taught how to put it on, and how to use it, but I still don't feel that confident. She did really well walking, a little bit of side to side to start with and was pulling a bit, but I think having the other dog there (who she had never met before) helped, she seemed to copy him and got the general idea after a while (definitely not perfect though!). Definitley agree with you dancinbcs about not training for more than 10 mins, she has a short attention span as it is, trying to get her to do anything is a challenge, especially if there are other dogs around.

Do people think that going to classes etc is the best/only way to train, or is it possible to get a dog well trained by doing it at home?

[Benji&Cuddles]

Easy to do it at home.

(from Midol, mum was signed in)

Edited January 17, 2009 by Benji&Cuddles

[dancinbcs]

Sure, you can train at home if you just want a well behaved pet but if you intend to enter obedience trials you will need to train with the distraction of other dogs around. This can be done at a club or even on the grounds where a dog show is being held. If you are going to be showing your puppy the best place to learn is at a show. There are always some helpful people around who can show you how to train for showing if you ask.

The best method for beginners is usually to get a few private lessons from a good trainer, work at home and then decide if you want to join a club. This way you will not be a complete novice when you go to a training club and can make informed decisions about what is best for your puppy.

The weaving back and forth on a lead is a BC trait as is running in circles when off lead. They are natural movements for a herding dog. Getting a BC to do a straight recall can also be a challenge as their natural instinct is to come in an arc rather than a straight line.

[Just Midol]

Sure, you can train at home if you just want a well behaved pet but if you intend to enter obedience trials you will need to train with the distraction of other dogs around. This can be done at a club or even on the grounds where a dog show is being held. If you are going to be showing your puppy the best place to learn is at a show. There are always some helpful people around who can show you how to train for showing if you ask.

The best method for beginners is usually to get a few private lessons from a good trainer, work at home and then decide if you want to join a club. This way you will not be a complete novice when you go to a training club and can make informed decisions about what is best for your puppy.

The weaving back and forth on a lead is a BC trait as is running in circles when off lead. They are natural movements for a herding dog. Getting a BC to do a straight recall can also be a challenge as their natural instinct is to come in an arc rather than a straight line.

She said obedience, showing is entirely different and irrelevant.

You can train for distractions just as easily without a club. I don't go to an obedience club and nor will I ever attend an obedience club. Too many narrow minded clubs which aren't open to different training styles.

[MayaBC]

Thanks Midol and dancinbcs. Yeah, just a pet, we won't be showing her or anything, we live a couple of hours from Adelaide and don't really have the time to put into it. The local obedience class also does agility afterwards which I thought would be good for her, she would love it. But am feeling increasingly uncomfortable about the choker chain, so I might just train her at home.

We have two other dogs (and have had many previously) on my parents farm. All of which we have trained at home. One of them would come 99 per cent of the time (the one percent is if she found a kangaroo to chase across the paddock) She sits, stays, drops all of that, won't bring a ball back if you throw it to her, she thinks it's a game and you are supposed to chase her to get it back. The other is about 15 now and probably couldn't hear us calling, so that's a different story. Both of those dogs though would be a different story in terms of recall if they were in the town around others though I think. I do feel comfortable training her, and I might see about doing one or so private lessons in the city if I'm not having any luck with her at home. We have 10 acres which I would love to be able to let her run free on when we are outside, so recall if my main concern, of which she has about 20% at the moment, and that's being generous.

[dancinbcs]

If you are going to train at home I suggest you try to get a copy of the book "Think Dog" by John Fisher and any of his other books or DVDs to have look at.

I wish I had read"Think Dog" before training my first BC. John Fisher's philosophy on dog training can be applied to his methods and several other methods and it makes life so much easier for both you and your dog.

[Just Midol]

Thanks Midol and dancinbcs. Yeah, just a pet, we won't be showing her or anything, we live a couple of hours from Adelaide and don't really have the time to put into it. The local obedience class also does agility afterwards which I thought would be good for her, she would love it. But am feeling increasingly uncomfortable about the choker chain, so I might just train her at home.

We have two other dogs (and have had many previously) on my parents farm. All of which we have trained at home. One of them would come 99 per cent of the time (the one percent is if she found a kangaroo to chase across the paddock) She sits, stays, drops all of that, won't bring a ball back if you throw it to her, she thinks it's a game and you are supposed to chase her to get it back. The other is about 15 now and probably couldn't hear us calling, so that's a different story. Both of those dogs though would be a different story in terms of recall if they were in the town around others though I think. I do feel comfortable training her, and I might see about doing one or so private lessons in the city if I'm not having any luck with her at home. We have 10 acres which I would love to be able to let her run free on when we are outside, so recall if my main concern, of which she has about 20% at the moment, and that's being generous.

If the dog can't hear you then you'll never get a decent recall. I know the dog that can't hear isn't yours, but if you get this issue in your dog you need either an e-collar or just a collar with vibrate only so you can communicate.

[MayaBC]

If the dog can't hear you then you'll never get a decent recall. I know the dog that can't hear isn't yours, but if you get this issue in your dog you need either an e-collar or just a collar with vibrate only so you can communicate.

Did think about that, but he's so old and wobbly now that he is just a pet, and only stays around the main house yard so he can hear enough to come back, if he runs out the gate to the paddock that's when there is a problem, but he doesn't do that often. Unfortunately I don't think he will be around much longer, has had a pretty good innings though.

[kateykateykatey]

Canine Interaction is where I took my dogs. They're in Croydon Park, so not terribly close unfortunately, but Megan is fantastic and is definitely worth a phone call or email - if for nothing else but to recommend another trainer for a private consult (and the trainer she recommends is awesome as well).

Megan has a beautiful BC as well.

[kritta]

im not sure if we are talking about the same obedience club here!, but the one i attended was excactly the same when it came to check chains, chocker chains etc... i wasn't to keen on using them but had no choice on obedience clubs as there is only one in my district. i have a rotti and wanted her to be exposed to as many different dogs as possible and be trained to a level where i could enjoy here to the fullest potential.

I used plenty of treats in my training to avoid having to pull on the chain, pretty much just having it there to keep the club happy. for me and my dog the treats did the job! Obedience clubs are a fantastic way of getting out there, and been with like minded ppl.

Its just i think there has to be a better way.....

[Nekhbet]

one size fits all training is not something I would pay for. I dont think people who run places like that truely can cater for all dogs and breeds.

I use chains, only because here in Victoria anything else useful would land me in prison I sooo need to move. I dont like them on pups, there is NO NEED especially if you have had the dog since puppyhood. Even most adult dogs can be trained on a flat or with a martingale or nylon dominant dog collar before the chain.

Border collies are people focussed, drivey dogs that want to work. Big constant corrections do NOT encourage they suppress - now thats useful for a dog that has too much outpouring of drive and is acting like a hurricane on a leash, they need something to get them back down to earth. But a 5 month old puppy? Nup. You dont build respect through force you build it through encouragement and trust. Also pups necks are quite sensitive and one good yank can cause bruising.

[Erny]

I use chains, only because here in Victoria anything else useful would land me in prison I sooo need to move.

So .... ya gonna join me when I move to NZ? I'd be going for the same reason, Nekhbet.