Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 We brought home our beautiful male pure bred black minature poodle 11 days ago - his name is Phoenix and he was 13 weeks when we got him, 14 now. After a week of settling in and bonding with us, he is now proving to be a real handful. I would appreciate any advice forum members can give me on the most basis aspects of puppy training, particularly in the area of toilet training. When he first came to us he was pretty well paper trained, but not outside trained. So we have tried to do the right thing but I'm afraid we just seem to be making matters worse. For a start, he refuses to be out of my sight, perfectly understandable since he came to us so late and probably feels that his survival depends on his not being separated from his new pack. And in fact this behaviour is now starting to relax a little - but I digress. The thing is, he seems to have the most incredible privacy issues when it comes to pooping. He absolutely will not poop in front of anyone. Which means he will hold it until our backs are turned, and then basically do it wherever he can. I've managed to get him to do it outside a few times, but he has to be totally relaxed, within sight of me but not too close and preferably me looking the other way - and we have to have been outside for at least half an hour if not longer. We know he needs to poop twice a day, but it has become a real battle of wills as to when he will actually do it. We are trying to create a routine as best we can, but our work gets in the way. In the evening after dinner we watch for the signs (him skulking off while we are otherwise engaged, for example in the bathroom ourselves), but have now taken to escorting him outside every hour on the hour, repeating the mantra "toilet" over and over, but nothing...until after we ourselves have gone to bed. The morning poop is now being done during the day in our upstairs office (we bring him into work as we own our own shop - all his toys come with us, as well as a brisket bone every day, and I spend a couple of hours during the day engaging him in play). With all our attempts to get him to poop, we now seem to have buggered up his peeing routine as well. He now refuses to pee outside and waits for attention to be off him before he does it IN HIS BED. And it doesn't matter where his bed is, that's where he squats. Take last night for example. We did the "toilet" routine outside about 20 times...nothing. So we laid paper by the back door as usual (where he used to go quite happily), brough his bed into our bedroom which is where he spends the night (on the floor), got into bed...and bingo! Right in his bed! Not only that, I only worked it out after he spent 15 minutes pushing his bed to the other side of the room, presumably so he wouldn't be offended by the smell of his own pee during the night. Needless to say as of this morning we've removed his bed (it's in the wash) completely and he won't be seeing it for a couple of months. We installed a doggie door on Sunday and got him used to using it, but since he refuses to go outside without me it hasn't yet been of much use. I'm sorry this is so long-winded, but I'm at my wits end and frightened of making things even worse as every day goes by. Plese help - even the most basic of advice will be of assistance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Oh dear... you have more patience than me ok.. just where did he come from? friends kennel breeder ws he an inside puppy an outdoor puppy a kennel puppy a cage puppy Did he have littermates with him? or was he kept alone? Did he have lots of human contact,and early training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 he refuses to go outside without me he refuses to be out of my sight He now refuses to pee outside he has to be totally relaxed, within sight of me but not too close and preferably me looking the other way OK, it should NOT be this difficult. You need to settle down, stop trying so hard, and stop trying to analyse your dog. Their needs are pretty basic at this stage... food, water, toilet, play, and sleep. They also need a secure environment, a routine, and a FIRM hand. I really don't believe this pup is capable of the thought processes you are crediting him with. The quotes above sort of yell out to me that this pup is in charge here. You need to change that ASAP. Whether you take advice from here, or invest in a good puppy training book, or better still, some one on one training with somebody reputable. You need to get right back to basics, and also consider a crate if you have not got one already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Some dogs don't like to toilet in front of people if they have been reprimanded for doing so in the past (eg if toileting in wrong spot or in the house and reprimanded) - not saying this has happened here, but it is a possibility. Doesn't mean reprimanded harshly or anything like that, but any reprimand and it may have associated the reprimand with toileting in presence of person not the place. Some don't like toileting on lead either. Dogs certainly develop toileting preferences, for substrate type (grass, paper, concrete etc) and location (in yard, on walks etc). Two of mine prefer to toilet at home, one on a walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaz Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 You say he needs to poop twice a day, this seems too few to me, my girls usd to go at 3-5, may have been what I was feeding them. What do you do when he does do it outside? We used to get really excited and tell them what good girls they were, making a bit of a fuss, so they always knew it was a good thing to do it in front of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Hi Persephone - he came from a breeder, who breeds show dogs. He was an outside puppy, in a large cage enclosure about 4 metres by 4 metres. He was with two remaining littermates, his father was in a separate enclosure close by and his grandmother (who was whelping) had free run of the entire shebang. His mother is an American. He did have lots of early contact with people...his younger cousins were being reared indoors as was he, he was beautifully groomed (now a bit scruffier a week later lol) and has very good manners - you can touch his ears, muzzle and paws easily and he doesn't hog his food or get protective around his brisket bones. Gareth, you are right, on re-reading my comments I do seem to be over-analysing things, but toilet time does seem to make him quite anxious - he just won't toilet outside, holds on and then does it inside when we aren't looking. He seems quite timid about everything - although I understand he is in his first "fear period"? Kavik, thanks for your insight - I can see that different dogs have quite different preferences! Should I give him his (clean) bed back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Some dogs don't like to toilet in front of people if they have been reprimanded for doing so in the past (eg if toileting in wrong spot or in the house and reprimanded) - not saying this has happened here, but it is a possibility. This would be my guess also. Most pups will squat right in front of you until they learn that pooing inside brings punishment. You need to set up the routine and stick to it. Outside after waking, after eating, after play. On the hour otherwise isn't a bad idea.l Take a book and a chair if necessary and just let him wander around. Praise him like crazy for doing the right thing and just clean up the accidents without comment unless you catch him in the act and if you do pick him up and whisk him outside. Move his play outside as much as possible. Feed him those bones outside too if you can. He should improve in confidence slowly. Close doors to rooms and keep him relatively confined so he can't get out of sight on you. A crate would be a very good investment if you don't have one. Where did you get him from? Early toileting habits can be very hard to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 BigDaz, twice a day seems to be it, unless he's hiding them somewhere As for praising him when he does it outside - well I have to catch him in the act first, which is almost impossible In 11 days I've only actually seen him poop 4 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks poodlefan - all makes good sense. I've recalculated his age - he is actually 15 weeks old. Might explain why he is so skittish/nervous around everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Thanks poodlefan - all makes good sense. I've recalculated his age - he is actually 15 weeks old. Might explain why he is so skittish/nervous around everything? Or that might simply be his temperament - it's not unknown in miniature poodles and if he's never been socialsed outside the place where you got him from he has some catching up to do. It's important not to feed his anxiety. Just be as matter of fact about everything that you can. You will need to be socialising this one heavily now. Puppy pre-school, ongoing dog training and getting him out and about in a way that doesn't over face him will all help. I honestly think that spending all day every day with you will not assist him developing some independence. He needs to learn to cope with being alone and some time in a crate in a secure place he knows may assist. Edited January 13, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Poodlefan, everything is starting to click into place. Do you think I should be taking him into work with me or leaving him at home on his own? At work he stays upstairs in the office, but I visit him every hour and spend a bit of time playing with him and his toys. If he were to stay at home he would be on his own for about 8 hours at a time. He would be confined to a couple of rooms at the back of the house and would have access to the backyard via his doggie door. I thought I might start him at puppy preschool in about a week's time. I don't know much about crates - isn't he a little old for one now? Forgive my ignorance, I will have to read up on them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Poodlefan, everything is starting to click into place. Do you think I should be taking him into work with me or leaving him at home on his own? At work he stays upstairs in the office, but I visit him every hour and spend a bit of time playing with him and his toys. If he were to stay at home he would be on his own for about 8 hours at a time. He would be confined to a couple of rooms at the back of the house and would have access to the backyard via his doggie door. I thought I might start him at puppy preschool in about a week's time. I don't know much about crates - isn't he a little old for one now? Forgive my ignorance, I will have to read up on them... I think taking him to work is fine but perhaps work up to leaving him on his own for a few hours. You might also take him outside on lead and start getting him used to outdoor sights and sounds. Maybe mix it up with leaving him at home when he's a bit older. He is definitely not too old for a crate and if he does lack confidence, he may well enjoy the security they can provide. He is also unlikely to soil it provided it isn't too big. Edited January 13, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dont get caught in the taking to work all the time .Your pup needs to learn independence . We installed a doggie door on Sunday and got him used to using it, but since he refuses to go outside without me it hasn't yet been of much use. He will go out without ,this where you need to be the leader & give the confidence for your pup to be alone.At present hes always with you whether that be home or work.Poodles can be a nightmare for being totally reliant on there owners & because of this often needy behavior owners give them what they want & the cycle gets worse & worse. Yes he would be missing his playmates & his routine BUT it is also time for you to set him up for life . You need to do the separation thing & place pup outside with a confident tone & say toilet & shut the door.Go out & check for any parcels. Dont pander to any whinging but be fair,your pup for its other living arrangements does now outside so you need to follow through on this & not create man made blunders. I guess wwhat im saying is you dont have to be s o needy to the dog,it will crave ever inch you give it but you wont be rewarded with what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 You guys are wonderful. Thanks for all the advice. I'll report back in a couple of days with his (and my) progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) If you have problems with him sneaking away, while he's inside, you can tether him to you.. I did that with Ben, and he's now great... It also helped training him on leash. I just used a walkbelt, and attached a leash to it (I had a normal leash shortened and clips put on both ends - it cost me $5). Attaching the leash to your belt might work with such a small dog. ETA.. Ben was nearly 5 months old, before I could fully trust him... Edited January 13, 2009 by BigBen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BittyMooPeeb Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Hi Guapa, Something I wanted to add (on top of other info posted) is to make going outside for loo breaks a more fun, relaxing time. It sounds like you are getting stressed and also putting pressure on the pup to do something (by saying 'toilet' repeatedly). Some suggestions: - set up a puppy pen outside that you can put him in to go to the loo so that you can see when he goes and praise him, treat him, play with him, etc. (stay with him though). - do you take him for walks yet? Walking usually makes them want to poo and as he is on lead you will know when he goes. - if he is paper trained, put down *two* separate sets of paper. I found that my pup didnt like to poo and wee in the same area, and if I only had one set of paper out he would poo on it and wee on the rug (or vice versa). - Praise and treat him when he wees, LOTS and LOTS of happy praise and dont skimp on the treats. Keep containers of liver treats, cheese etc around the house so as soon as he goes you can reward him. Being happy weeing in front of you should help him feel more comfortable in doing a poo too. - dont ask anything of him at toilet time. Just take him outside (and you relax too!), and if he doesnt go, dont show any negative reaction, just try again later. - do you have a friend with a friendly, relaxed dog. Getting together with another dog may help him to relax and learn what the right things to are. Take them both for a walk and praise the other dog when it poos! - DONT scold your pup when he goes inside, even if you catch him at it. Just distract him and lead him outside (even if he has already finished). If he even does one more drop of wee, reward him! (I distract with a high pitched, happy voice saying "oops, outside, outside" in the same tone of voice I would use to invite a game. I run outside with him and if he goes again/more, he gets a treat. If he doesnt, no probs, we just go back in or do something fun liek a few 'sits' with treats) - Lastly, make sure everyone in the house follows the same rules, and dont let anyone scold him for toileting. Re taking him to work, I think it is a *great* idea, as long as he isnt with you all the time. It sounds like he is upstairs and you visit him every hour, so he is learning to be alone, while not being left on his own for ages . ETA: also, take a step backwards and bring his paper into the living areas of the house. Only when he is happy using the paper again, start to move it towards the back door. Edited January 13, 2009 by BittyMooPeeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi Guapa, Hope Phoenix is beginning to settle - it sounds like he and you are feeding off each other's anxieties... try and relax and enjoy each other, this will all seem a distant memory. I would reintroduce a clean bed - if he's disorientated the random giving and taking away of beds etc. will only confuse him more. The fact the he pee'd on his bed is an indicator that he's got so confused and anxious about where and when he can /can't go, that the he then pee'd on the place where he felt secure. Also some sensitive dogs don't like enthusiastic praise, it just confuses them, a couple of quiet softly spoken words often works best. There is a truly excellent canine behaviourist, Dr Ian Dunbar, and on his site he is allowing anyone to download his book, 'After You Get Your Puppy' FREE as part of his shelter dog prevention month. You will find some excellent advice and protocols dealing with all puppy and dog issues including house training Link to free download of 'After You Get Your Puppy' http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/after...-get-your-puppy Good luck and hope things start to improve. j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 There is a truly excellent canine behaviourist, Dr Ian Dunbar, and on his site he is allowing anyone to download his book, 'After You Get Your Puppy' FREE as part of his shelter dog prevention month. You will find some excellent advice and protocols dealing with all puppy and dog issues including house trainingLink to free download of 'After You Get Your Puppy' http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/after...-get-your-puppy Good luck and hope things start to improve. j Hi Jaycee, Just wanted to say thanks sooooo much for this link. I've been trying to find a copy and was thinking of ordering it online. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Link to free download of 'After You Get Your Puppy' http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/after...-get-your-puppy Good luck and hope things start to improve. Hi Jaycee, Just wanted to say thanks sooooo much for this link. I've been trying to find a copy and was thinking of ordering it online. Cheers My pleasure - as newbie to this forum wasn't sure if it had already been put up - on the assumption its not I'll start a new thread so it can get a wider audience - as these (as 'Before you get your puppy' is also available to download free) are excellent books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guapa Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hi everyone Thanks so much for the advice. You are all so right, we have been feeding off each others anxieties. So in the last 48 hours we seem to have made some real progress. We are: 1. Back to weeing and pooing on paper at the back door - BittyMooPeeb, you are right, he DOESN'T like to wee and poo in the same area so I've put down a larger area of paper at home and two separate areas of paper at work to take care of that and it's working 2. Not going in his bed anymore - we've given it back to him all washed and clean and he hasn't weed in in once 3. Weeing quite happily now in front of me 4. Actually doing his business outside occasionally! Well twice anyway. This morning I took him out as soon as I woke up, took him to his area, only said "toilet" a couple of times, went and sat down on the grass and sure enough after about 10 minutes he pooed in his area (I collect all his waste including paper and put it in the one spot). And jaycee, you are right, he doesn't like enthusiastic praise after doing the deed - it's the only time he shies away from me. In fact he doesn't seem to like any attention being drawn to his toilet activities, so this morning I settled for a couple of "good boys" when he finally came over, then we played for a minute or two, then back inside. I will also take up the treat suggestion today. I wasn't sure what would constitute a treat (it takes him 1/2 an hour to get through one liver treat) but you have answered that question - I'll make some cheese cubes up for him. I'll also download Ian Dunbar's book immediately Thanks to all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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