Interesting Read

[Erny]

Hehehehe ..... I like it when you're sleep deprived.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

so do the dogs I reek of liver

rant rant rant rant rant rant rant ...

clean your room! Comb your hair! Sit up straight AAAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Staranais]

If not, then is it simply a matter of them not understanding the fundamentals of (a) how training equipment works and/or (b) how punishment works?

You've hit the nail on the head.

I'm at vet school right now, and the lectures we have received on dog training have (so far) have been VERY positive-only focused.

For example, we were told that choke chains are OK "in the right hands", but headcollars were a more humane and less risky way to manage pulling (the risks associated with head collars were not mentioned).

Pinch collars were not mentioned except to show us a photograph (there was a muted "oooh" of shock from the class at the typically gruesome looking picture) and to be told that the lecturer "didn't really like them" as they worked via pain.

E-collars were explained as devices that worked via shock and pain, and therefore could only be justified as a last case resort, but that they often did more harm than good anyway.

Either the lecturer didn't understand how these tools could be used appropriately to help some dogs, or else she didn't want us to know about it for some reason? I rather suspect it was the former, as she seemed very genuine.

All the other papers we've done on the vet course so far have been really good - the information presented has been detailed, in depth, and the lecturers have been even handed about controversial issues. I don't understand the bias in this one section of this one paper!

*back to lurking"

[corvus]

A dog that is terrified of its handler won't learn anything. Corvus can you give me examples of an aversive that doesn't cause fear and one that does? I just want to understand where you're coming from: )

Yeah, but a dog that is slightly afraid of its handler will learn a lot. I don't know about you, but I don't like the "Don't hurt me!" look that tells me I just went too far. A dog might recover from that within a couple of seconds, but it is my belief that you still went too far if you got that look.

Okay, an aversive that doesn't use fear. I'll use my hare because he's such a good litmus test for fear. You KNOW when he's scared. When my hare starts chewing on something he's not meant to, I'll say "Oi! Get out of that!". He stops and looks at me. He thinks about it. He decides he's enjoying nibbling, so he starts again. I say "Oi!" and I get up. He crouches slightly, but he doesn't move, he's just ready to. So I go "Oooo, you get out of that you naughty boy" or something to that effect and I approach him flicking my fingers at him or I act like I'm going to chase him. The pressure of my presence getting closer to his personal space is something he doesn't feel like right now so he lopes off to find something else to do. This exchange is something that has developed over time and now he knows when I say "Oi!" I'm going to get up and shoo him away if he doesn't stop what he's doing. He'll often test me and figure out exactly what gets me to say "oi". Every once in a while he feels like being chased and deliberately goes and chews on something he's not meant to and keeps at it until I get up and chase him. I think in most cases getting in his space in a non-threatening way is aversive because he moves away to widen the space again. However if it caused fear he wouldn't be back at it 2 minutes later or deliberately trying to provoke me into coming after him. Generally if I say "oi" he wanders off to do something else because he's not in the mood to be chased. I can use the same sort of thing with the dogs, except they normally come towards me rather than going away.

An aversive that does use fear: The way I dealt with Kivi outlined in my earlier post.

Jo Public whose 50-60kg dog is jumping them such as the example i gave earlier does need a quick physical correction in their toolbox IMO- what else would they safely do? Its hard to ignore the dog as you fall to the ground.

Well, my thought is that this is exactly the kind of case that ends with someone shouting at their dog and shoving them or hitting them. I doubt they are going to be thinking of safe or positive ways to handle this when they are on the ground and/or bleeding. I know I wouldn't. If they had used positive methods to teach the dog to sit instead of jumping up when it was small they wouldn't have this problem. If they got this dog when he was already that size and had learnt this behaviour, then one would hope the folks adopting him out would do something to address this before they give the dog to someone. If the dog is doing something that can't be ignored then chances are the correction is going to come pretty emotionally charged no matter what it is, and it will be a correction no matter what the person has been told about how evil they are. We all have our limits.

[corvus]

It is often said that the use of punishment (particularly positive punishment of the physical kind) breaks down the bond between dog and owner. I guess my kids missed that memo....

Well, I think that what is said is that the use of punishment CAN damage the bond between dog and owner. I know for a fact that it can because I trained Penny with corrections. It wasn't until 18 months into attempting to connect with a wild hare some 9 years after training Penny with corrections that I finally made that connection with the hare and suddenly realised how much my relationship with my dog had been damaged all those years ago. I would never have known if I hadn't hand-raised that hare and learnt what it looks like to have an untainted bond with an animal. I wholly believe that not all dogs respond the way Penny did and that it can be done with no long-term negative effects, but I don't want to risk it. I don't believe I have to. And besides, the magic I've seen without punishments is pretty addictive. I'm forever trying to recreate it.

My dogs know about it when I'm cross with them, but if I'm in my right mind and acting not reacting, then they don't get physical corrections. I create conditional punishers, such as the "oi" with my hare. They aren't particularly effective until you teach the animal what it means. Then the effectiveness increases over time until it plateaus. If they are really bad, they get sent outside for a few minutes. I haven't yet found a need for physical punishment, and given it is so easily misused, I will keep it out of my toolbox as long as I can keep me and my animals safe and sane without it.

Incidentally, I think antelopes and dogs are completely comparable when it comes to the fear response. Fear responses are more or less the same across all vertebrates. Trigger = flight or fight (or freeze). The difference is only in the expression and intensity. This seems like a big difference to some, but not to me. It is actually VERY useful to look at fear in a more flighty animal than dogs. It gives you a respect for fear that I think everyone should have. It's not a nice tool. It is hard to predict how much of it is safe to use. It is hard to predict how intense the response will be. It's hard to know if the animal is learning some things you don't want it to learn along with some things that you do. In my experience, sometimes the things you don't want them to learn can have long-lasting effects on your relationship. A dog will hopefully never react the way an antelope would to fear, but I for one like to know where the end of the fear response continuum lies. It's good to know what is in the realms of possibility in the animal world.

Personally, I would never use a trainer that used physical corrections either, no matter how experienced that trainer might be. I could never trust someone else to punish my pets. And there are too many trainers out there that know less than I do in the first place.

[Cosmolo]

But corvus thats my point. When i saw the dog they were yelling and pushing etc. But after teaching them how to use a clear correction, the dog stops jumping, they remain calm because they know what to do and when to do it and can then reward the quick responses and learning. They had had the dog since a pup- not everyone knows how to teach the right things from day one- many people don't and i don't think they would appreciate me saying that they should have instead of giving them a solution for the here and now.

[Cosmolo]

And just because a person used punishment and had a poor or diminished bond- is that the fault of the punisher? Or the training method being used? Using food treats can make a dog fat- is that the food's negative side effect or the fact that the person dishing out the food treats gave too many too frequently?

[Just Midol]

Honestly, with a hard dog like Montu I think withholding treats and no corrections would be more stressful.

[huski]

Well, I think that what is said is that the use of punishment CAN damage the bond between dog and owner. I know for a fact that it can because I trained Penny with corrections. It wasn't until 18 months into attempting to connect with a wild hare some 9 years after training Penny with corrections that I finally made that connection with the hare and suddenly realised how much my relationship with my dog had been damaged all those years ago. I would never have known if I hadn't hand-raised that hare and learnt what it looks like to have an untainted bond with an animal. I wholly believe that not all dogs respond the way Penny did and that it can be done with no long-term negative effects, but I don't want to risk it. I don't believe I have to. And besides, the magic I've seen without punishments is pretty addictive. I'm forever trying to recreate it.

Corvus, I agree with what Cosmolo has said - the fact is that any type of training can be used inappropriately, or wrongly. The idea that punishment "can" cause damage means nothing when it can be used successfully, with great results if done properly.

Personally, I would never use a trainer that used physical corrections either, no matter how experienced that trainer might be. I could never trust someone else to punish my pets. And there are too many trainers out there that know less than I do in the first place.

A good trainer will show you how to use corrections yourself - and should never do anything to your dog without your permission, or without telling you what they are doing first.

I am sure there are some dog trainers out there who know less about wild hares than you do too

Edited January 8, 2009 by huski

[corvus]

Corvus, I agree with what Cosmolo has said - the fact is that any type of training can be used inappropriately, or wrongly. The idea that punishment "can" cause damage means nothing when it can be used successfully, with great results if done properly.

The idea that punishment can cause damage means a lot to me. I will never be able to repair what I ruined with Penny. That knowledge haunts me every time I think of using punishment or corrections. I have improved our relationship, but it will never be what it should be. If someone can mess it up so easily and yet so subtly that it's barely noticeable then I'd rather avoid it if at all possible, and would urge others to do the same. I have heard about people that have messed up positive methods, but I don't know anyone personally who has and the people I know who have used these methods are just average people that don't know much about training. This is purely my opinion, but messing up with positive reinforcement is surely a good deal less potentially damaging than messing up with fear. Now my opinions are coloured by wild animals and soft dogs, and if I get a hard dog and discover I need punishments in my world after all, you'll all know where I will come for help. I have had this conversation so many times and there's only one dog I've ever heard of who I believe really needed punishment and there was something seriously wrong in his brain. I know of many more dogs that responded badly to punishment, sometimes with upsetting results, and some of these were the very dogs thought of as "hard".

So it's a no-brainer to me. But that's just my experiences. I won't judge anyone that wants to use punishments and believes they can use them "successfully", but I have no interest in supporting something that has ruined my shot at magic with Penny.

Incidentally, people have been amazed at how quickly their large, boisterous dog can learn to sit for a pat instead of jumping all over you. I find it's a lot easier with big dogs than small dogs, actually. I once taught someone's dog to stop jumping up when I was 14 with nothing more than lightness on my feet and giving the dog what she wanted. It took about two minutes. Not all dogs are that fast, but I figure it's worth a try. Someone suggested standing on the dog's leash so they can't actually get the front feet up. Not really a correction, but works pretty well all the same. Pretty soon dog tries something else and you get to reward them.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The idea that punishment can cause damage means a lot to me. I will never be able to repair what I ruined with Penny. That knowledge haunts me every time I think of using punishment or corrections. I have improved our relationship, but it will never be what it should be. If someone can mess it up so easily and yet so subtly that it's barely noticeable then I'd rather avoid it if at all possible, and would urge others to do the same. I have heard about people that have messed up positive methods, but I don't know anyone personally who has and the people I know who have used these methods are just average people that don't know much about training. This is purely my opinion, but messing up with positive reinforcement is surely a good deal less potentially damaging than messing up with fear. Now my opinions are coloured by wild animals and soft dogs, and if I get a hard dog and discover I need punishments in my world after all, you'll all know where I will come for help. I have had this conversation so many times and there's only one dog I've ever heard of who I believe really needed punishment and there was something seriously wrong in his brain. I know of many more dogs that responded badly to punishment, sometimes with upsetting results, and some of these were the very dogs thought of as "hard".

Corvus, I wish I was as eloquent as you. This expresses my feelings on the matter really beautifully. Thank-you.

[huski]

The idea that punishment can cause damage means a lot to me. I will never be able to repair what I ruined with Penny. That knowledge haunts me every time I think of using punishment or corrections. I have improved our relationship, but it will never be what it should be. If someone can mess it up so easily and yet so subtly that it's barely noticeable then I'd rather avoid it if at all possible, and would urge others to do the same. I have heard about people that have messed up positive methods, but I don't know anyone personally who has and the people I know who have used these methods are just average people that don't know much about training. This is purely my opinion, but messing up with positive reinforcement is surely a good deal less potentially damaging than messing up with fear. Now my opinions are coloured by wild animals and soft dogs, and if I get a hard dog and discover I need punishments in my world after all, you'll all know where I will come for help. I have had this conversation so many times and there's only one dog I've ever heard of who I believe really needed punishment and there was something seriously wrong in his brain. I know of many more dogs that responded badly to punishment, sometimes with upsetting results, and some of these were the very dogs thought of as "hard".

So it's a no-brainer to me. But that's just my experiences. I won't judge anyone that wants to use punishments and believes they can use them "successfully", but I have no interest in supporting something that has ruined my shot at magic with Penny.

So do you believe that those who use corrections in their training are not actually getting any success? That their relationship with their dogs are damaged or based on fear? I use corrections in my training but they do not build or encourage fear in my dogs. Do you think everyone who uses corrections in training, are making the same mistakes that you did and are doing the same "damage"?

[Just Midol]

My dogs don't fear me.

[Cosmolo]

Not all dogs are that fast to learn with that method corvus- i agree. So what do you propose the owners with the not so quick dogs do while their large dog is leaping all over them, their children or their guests? What should the people who are not light enough on their feet to move out of the way do? Do you think that standing on the leash, while the dog lunges trying to jump up is different to a lead correction? I don't.

I've seen people mess up with many different methods- 'positive' included where dogs have then had preventable aggression issues. I could give many examples of this. Not the fault of the tool- the fault of the method.

Everyone has a choice as to what technique they use and that is fine. But to suggest that those who use corrections are training through fear and diminishing the bond between them and their dogs? Thats where you will get argument from me.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

So do you believe that those who use corrections in their training are not actually getting any success? That their relationship with their dogs are damaged or based on fear? I use corrections in my training but they do not build or encourage fear in my dogs. Do you think everyone who uses corrections in training, are making the same mistakes that you did and are doing the same "damage"?

Corvus said that they had no interest in judging. Why are you hammering at this? What is the injury to you in someone talking about their own personal experience? Is there fundamentally a problem with experienced people saying they prefer to avoid correction? I don't think there is.

Ultimately we are dealing in personal values with a lot of this stuff, and that goes for the pro-correction anecdata as much as anything else.

Edited to fix the quoting html

Edited January 8, 2009 by anita

[Cosmolo]

The injury is the implication that those who use corrections with their dogs train through fear and adversely affect their bond with their dog.

[Just Midol]

So do you believe that those who use corrections in their training are not actually getting any success? That their relationship with their dogs are damaged or based on fear? I use corrections in my training but they do not build or encourage fear in my dogs. Do you think everyone who uses corrections in training, are making the same mistakes that you did and are doing the same "damage"?

Corvus said that they had no interest in judging. Why are you hammering at this? What is the injury to you in someone talking about their own personal experience? Is there fundamentally a problem with experienced people saying they prefer to avoid correction? I don't think there is.

Ultimately we are dealing in personal values with a lot of this stuff, and that goes for the pro-correction anecdata as much as anything else.

Edited to fix the quoting html

Are you blind to the reasons why people get defensive?

She is telling us we control our dogs out of fear...

[huski]

So do you believe that those who use corrections in their training are not actually getting any success? That their relationship with their dogs are damaged or based on fear? I use corrections in my training but they do not build or encourage fear in my dogs. Do you think everyone who uses corrections in training, are making the same mistakes that you did and are doing the same "damage"?

Corvus said that they had no interest in judging. Why are you hammering at this? What is the injury to you in someone talking about their own personal experience? Is there fundamentally a problem with experienced people saying they prefer to avoid correction? I don't think there is.

Ultimately we are dealing in personal values with a lot of this stuff, and that goes for the pro-correction anecdata as much as anything else.

Edited to fix the quoting html

I'm sorry, but is she not judging by insinuating that by giving corrections, your relationship with your dog is damaged and based on fear?

I have no issue with what choice she makes in regards to her training, I am just trying to understand her thinking behind it - just as Corvus has done by asking questions on training methods in this thread and others.

[Erny]

Ultimately we are dealing in personal values with a lot of this stuff, and that goes for the pro-correction anecdata as much as anything else.

Actually, given the contents of the statement release by the AVSAB, it is not merely "personal values". The AVSAB have implied that any trainer who uses correction chains, PPCollars or e-collars and who uses corrections are doing the wrong thing by dogs. They are pointedly steering people away from them, when in fact this might be the very training that is the best for that client's dog they are dealing with. And the AVSAB have made their implications public.

I have no qualms with people holding "personal values". I think it very wrong though, when those "personal values" are turned around to publicly defame (by implication or otherwise) others who don't hold the same, especially given such defamation is it seems based on "personal values" and is flawed in many instances throughout.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm sorry, I think you all need to HTFU.

I have previously expressed empathy for people who feel that they are being pilloried for hurting their dogs - check out the most recent e-collar thread for an example. I do get it. However, you are insisting that people can't feel differently based on their own experience, which is where the line is crossed for me. You can refrain from judging someone and still decide that their decisions are not for you.

I have a Christian sister who is convinced I am going to hell because I don't share her values. I have vegetarian friends who find it repulsive that I eat meat. I still manage to reach out to them, even tho' their beliefs put distance between us. I certainly don't take it personally, why would I?

Are we allowed to decide we don't want correction as a first line option for our dogs or not?