Interesting Read

[Keshwar]

“The Use of Punishment for Behaviour Modification in Animals”

This is a position statement from AVSAB (The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior).

There are others at http://www.avsabonline.org/

Bear

[Cosmolo]

Thanks for the link. There are parts that i believe are accurate and parts that are inaccurate or don't provide a complete picture but its interesting nonetheless.

I would love to see some info regarding combination use of positive r and/ or negative r AND positive reinforcement. using one does not have to be to the exclusion of the other And using a punisher doesn't mean that teaching an alternate behaviour and addressing the underlying cause is not also carried out.

I'd also love to see some studies on the effects of psychological punishments vs physical punishments, the info only mentions examples of physical punishments

[Just Midol]

Ditto to Cosmolo.

Also adding the AVSAB has no real credibility when it comes to dog training, to me.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Ditto to Cosmolo.

Also adding the AVSAB has no real credibility when it comes to dog training, to me.

Why's that? Is there a group you think has credibility?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Thanks for the link. There are parts that i believe are accurate and parts that are inaccurate or don't provide a complete picture but its interesting nonetheless.

I would love to see some info regarding combination use of positive r and/ or negative r AND positive reinforcement. using one does not have to be to the exclusion of the other ;) And using a punisher doesn't mean that teaching an alternate behaviour and addressing the underlying cause is not also carried out.

Are you saying this because their position is to try non-punishment methods first? They allow for punishment under the supervision of an experienced trainer who understands it. What else would you want them to say?

They don't discuss how reinforcing delivering punishment can be to the deliverer of the punishment, and that is my major issue with unsupervised and/or inexperienced punishment. So as far as a position statement goes, it's less critical of punishment as an option than a lot of positive trainers would be.

I'd also love to see some studies on the effects of psychological punishments vs physical punishments, the info only mentions examples of physical punishments smile.gif

My suspicion is that it depends a great deal on the dog you have in front of you, which would make a study that attempted to give a broad picture very hard. Some dogs are hit very hard by a timeout, others see it as a reward depending on the context. Likewise with other methods. Honestly, I think the best results would be gained in educating people how to observe their dog and work out the best methods to use for that dog. It's not one size fits all.

[Cosmolo]

No i agree with that part of it Anita. I disagree that qualified people who use/ suggest punishment in appropriate contexts are "taking a liability risk" and that punishment alone causes some of the adverse responses they suggest. Poor training, lack of clarity, timing and lack of consistency creates those effects, not just the fact that one uses a punisher.

Overall though, its not bad reading and i think they do acknowledge things that others wouldn't.

[Just Midol]

Ditto to Cosmolo.

Also adding the AVSAB has no real credibility when it comes to dog training, to me.

Why's that?

Because to me, it appears as though they operate as a business & political lobby group.

This also:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

Also the bottom link on this page:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ind...&Itemid=375

imo a lot in that "article" that is linked to is complete crap. Sorry, but imo, the organisation is a political lobby group with the majority of members being positive trainers who throw in some lame "if" statements so they don't completely rule out punishments simply to keep some of their members happy.

The fact that they don't appear to tackle any real subjects (like the psychological vs physical punishment issue, physical correction vs withholding of rewards... which is worse) shows they don't really care about researching anything worthwhile.

I might be wrong, but I doubt it. Why am I expected to agree with them simply because they are vets?

Edited January 6, 2009 by Lord Midol

[Nekhbet]

AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic

collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals.2

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

thats just my opinion.

Not for use in every situation but sometimes a good correction can make a world of difference. Spreading more scaremongering about training tools as usual.

The whole paper makes it seem that punishment will send your animal into a frenzy and will either be scarred for life or turn on you

FFS. They have their time and place. When a 50kg dog is trying to take your face off what do they suggest one does? No no you get no treat until you stop rolling your eyes and foaming. Ignore it? Maybe offer it a toy ... I think they need a broader range of experience with some truely troubled or difficult animals before writing things like this.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Nekhbet

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think they need a broader range of experience with some truely troubled or difficult animals before writing things like this.

Well, they are veterinary behaviourists. Whatever you think of their position statement, I think it's fair to say that their members would have seen some pretty troubled and difficult animals because its their job to deal with those kinds of animals.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

This also:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

I posted that a few weeks ago. No-one commented then. What exactly is wrong with it? Do you think the science is poor? If so, in what ways?

imo a lot in that "article" that is linked to is complete crap.

I might be wrong, but I doubt it. Why am I expected to agree with them simply because they are vets?

The two people who put together the articles at the link you provided have PhD's in animal behaviour. Exactly why is it crap? Do you have a cogent rebuttal?

[Keshwar]

AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic

collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals.2

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

thats just my opinion.

Not for use in every situation but sometimes a good correction can make a world of difference. Spreading more scaremongering about training tools as usual.

The whole paper makes it seem that punishment will send your animal into a frenzy and will either be scarred for life or turn on you

FFS. They have their time and place. When a 50kg dog is trying to take your face off what do they suggest one does? No no you get no treat until you stop rolling your eyes and foaming. Ignore it? Maybe offer it a toy ... I think they need a broader range of experience with some truely troubled or difficult animals before writing things like this.

Notice the part that I have bolded for you. They aren't saying don't use punishment, ever. So in the situation you describe I suspect an aversive/punishment may be an appropriate response.

Bear.

[Nekhbet]

Well, they are veterinary behaviourists.

I've met a few. Some have their heads on straight and are absolute gurus, others you would not take the advice free let alone fork your hard earned $$ out for. Being a vet doesnt automatically make you better at understanding dogs. Also what seems to constitute "behaviorist" in the veterinary world may be a little misleading at times.

should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems

This to me shows lack of experience. This to me says 100% try everything else first because the equipment has the potential to scar your dog either mentally or physically. The article looked like scare mongering to me.

There is a time and a place for everything - YES.

To discount something 100% - and even if that is saying you should not try it first - to me shows lack of either exposure to various behaviors or a limited view neither which appeals to me when training a living, thinking creature. I've met new dogs, assessed them, used a check chain on them and instant understanding between me and dog. I dont yank it around I simply use it as an effective tool to help the dog understand right from wrong - and then it also gets its reward, encouragement etc in conjunction. So why plug away when you can solve it effectively?

ETA horses for courses. Yes it explains technical terms but they shouldnt scare people away from methods of training or trainers. Look at the last page, the average joe would feel like a monster subjecting their dog to the horrors of a punishment when in fact it might be the right thing for them. And a nice horrifying pinch collar whacked in there too

Edited January 6, 2009 by Nekhbet

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Well, they are veterinary behaviourists.

I've met a few. Some have their heads on straight and are absolute gurus, others you would not take the advice free let alone fork your hard earned $$ out for. Being a vet doesnt automatically make you better at understanding dogs. Also what seems to constitute "behaviorist" in the veterinary world may be a little misleading at times.

The word "behaviourist" is used misleadingly in a lot of places, that's not restricted to vets. Anyone can put up a shingle and call themselves a behaviourist. However, in this case, they are clear about qualifications and what they mean:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ind...&Itemid=357

Suggesting that people are not expert in their speciality is easily said, you had suggested that they needed broader experience with difficult dogs for example. I am not seeing anything in the replies coming back on this that provide anything but opinion and anecdote as a backup to this view tho'. How do you know they don't have broader experience? I'm still not convinced it's an outrageous document, it seems quite balanced and credible to me.

[Erny]

AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic

collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals.2

I use what works best for the animal (taking into account situation; circumstance and environment). I do strive to use "minimum for maximum" effect and sometimes that is the use of the PPCollar, or e-collar or check chain. Couple that with a good behaviour modification technique and the results can be quite amazing and speaking 'time wise', efficient and emotionally economical.

I do not agree that the equipment items referred to should be viewed with a "use them only if all else fails". That attitude doesn't always help the dog nor the dog's owners and can sometimes lead to the behaviour becoming more ingrained than it otherwise needs to.

Reading even just that first paragraph seems to conjur the image that if you have one of the aforesaid collars fitted that you're therefore not using other training methodology in combination. I don't think that's right either. It also seems to imply that other training methodology (including what we commonly know/refer to as "PP" training) doesn't have potential adverse affects such as "increased fear-related and aggressive behaviours" or "injury to animals and people interacting with animals" and I disagree with that concept as well.

Haven't checked out the rest of the article yet so can't give further comment at this point of time. Will have to return to this later.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

AVSAB recognizes that both positive reinforcement

and punishment require significant skill, effort, and awareness on the owner’s part. Both must be applied as the animal is performing the target behavior or within one second of the behavior to be most effective.

Shows up that they have not taken into account the methodology that is being used. For example, with e-collar training, I use negative reinforcement/low stim. The problem the AVSAB describes above doesn't occur with that method. And once a person knows and understands the method, it is surprising at how little skill and effort is required in comparison to other equipment AND in comparison with PP Training.

[Erny]

AVSAB : For instance, electronic anti-bark collars can cause burn marks on dogs.

What!!??

No they can't. RSPCA were taken to court (and lost) over such an accusation.

Wonder where AVSAB got their information for this one?

[Erny]

AVSAB : Even when punishment seems mild, in order to be effective it often must elicit a strong fear response ...

(My highlights)

Is that a sweeping statement, or just my imagination? When I have utilised various of the training tools in the process of training and/or rehabilitating dog behaviour, I have not used the tool to elicit "strong fear response".

[Erny]

AVSAB : .. throwing a dog down on its back in an alpha roll when it nips ...

I'm not wanting this to become an debate on using the alpha roll -vs- not using it (I don't normally advocate it myself, but for other reasons) BUT, IMO, the alpha roll is not about "throwing" anything, let alone a dog down on its back.

[Erny]

AVASB : Punishment is frequently a first-line or an early-use tool by both the general public ...

I didn't mean to start pulling apart the AVASB Statement in this manner, but I can't help it as I keep seeing these sorts of statements. Firstly, I'd like to know where they gathered their statistics to be able to release a statement that suggests "punishment" is what the general public use first up.

I can only speak from my own experience and from what I learn/hear from others, but I tend to find that many of the unwanted behaviours that have developed and are for what people need me to help with, is because the owner has been loath to "punish" their dog at all.

Still haven't finished reading the whole article, and I really do need to leave this aside for the time being. Would be interested to read comments of others as to some of the things I've highlighted by my posts when I get back. Perhaps agreeing, or perhaps not.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

I agree with you Erny. I had missed the bark collar comment.. And i too find that the vast majority of clients have not punished their dog using a physical type correction ever? And et their dogs are still confused, fearful, aggressive etc- like i said before a punisher on its own does not create this, poor training does.