Please Advise Me...

[pip1981]

Hi There, just wanted some advice regarding our speyed 14 m.o female Samoyed, Dakota, and a 3 y.o desexed male rescue Kelpie (X) we only brought home yesterday afternoon.

For some background- we have always held the position of pack leaders or dominance over Dakota with no problems whatsoever, she seems to complete understand how it works in our house, although I think the Samoyed in her may occasionally test us in terms of stubborness, which, I've been told is normal.

In our previous experience with her meeting other dogs for 'playdates', she is very well socialised and knows how to read other dogs of all ages, but being young and excitable and possibly not the perfectly trained dog, does occasionally annoy 'not-so-playful' dogs. Even still, she is easily put in her place by them, for eg. her mum who we have visited says hello, but won't tolerate her playing, so she snarls, and that's the end of that. But, in most of her meetings with male dogs, she has seemed the dominant one to us (and we are told by Samoyed breeders, that the girls are the bosses?), for eg. if they have tried to display dominant behaviour like mounting, she hasn't ever submitted to them, but in saying that, looking back, there was one dog who she resorted to hiding from because he simply overpowered her in weight and strength, and in all honestly was a bit dopey.

Anyway, we perhaps wrongly went on the search for a more 'submissive' dog to be her companion and thought maybe a smaller breed or mixed breed might be suitable. We trawled shelters and shelter/rescue websites for months, and then started taking her with us to shelters for 'meet-and-greets' a couple of weeks ago. Many of the boys were 'entire' and even though Dakota is 'fixed', they attempted to mount her, often seen as an obvious sign of dominance, so we steered away from them, we never got around to testing her with any female candidates as breeders had told us they would always fight. We just wanted to see a playful and loving connection, and then a shelter attendant brought out 'Rusty', professing she knew we weren't after something like a Kelpy, but she just wanted to test them because he was shy and submissive. He approached with tail between legs and head down, then proceeded to very slowly and intently bow to Dakota. We had only ever seen a fast kind of play-bow, we weren't familiar with this behaviour, the attendant explained that is was 'the greatest sign of respect amongst dogs', then they continued to sniff each other's rears, etc, he kept bowing and lowering himself to her and 'kissing' her, of course, we thought it was all very sweet, and the attendant said she loved the dynamics between them, thought they'd be a great match, etc, etc, there were occasions when he did put his head over her back and begi to mount, the attendant said this was just him letting her know he was a boy, not dominance (seemed a little unusual to us, but she was the expert, not us)??? so we went away thinking about it. We never intended on getting a 'working breed' dog, or a dog as large as a Kelpy (he's a little bit taller than Dakota and only about 3.5kgs heavier), but we talked about it with each other and some dog-experienced aquaintances, and decided, breed and size didn't really matter, only that they got along, and we committed ourselves to the exercise/mental stimulation a Kelpy needs, etc.

We only picked him up yesterday afternoon, we had Dakota with us. He jumped right in the back of our wagon, no probs, we secured them, then began the hour drive home, we were entertained on the way home, with his amazing focus on the cars zooming by, definitely nothing we are familiar with, lol, I can really imagine him atop sheep, but anyway, Dakota just lays there all relaxed like he's not even there, and he pretty much stands the entire trip.

Overall he seems to have settled in well to our household, just us and the dogs, seems used to living inside, does exactly what he is told with not much hesitation, but the following are some things of concern we have noticed so far... (early days I know, but I want to know all there is to know)

1. Once we were home he could not keep his focus off me, always by me, following me unless I command him to stay (I know we're lucky to have a rescue that already knows how to stay, hehe), possibly indicates he was mostly around females?

2. We fed Dakota out of her own bowl as normal and put his food in another container, he began to scoff his down, Dakota is not food oriented at all and never scoffs, she stopped eating, went to check him out, he growled and bared teeth at her, she backed off, but we told him 'no', obviously he has had to compete for food in his lifetime or has never been taught otherwise, we figured this was normal, but also slightly dominant behaviour?

3. From when we first got home yesterday afternoon until this evening, whenever we try to show affection to Dakota (especially me), he tries to get between us as though he is 'claiming/guarding' me, at first we were saying 'no', but have since been told even this is 'attention', so now we are ignoring and continuing to show Dakota affection, then showing him affection separately or at other times, we feel this is obvious dominant behaviour?

4. We did walk them together, one dog each at first, fiance and Dakota in front, me and Rusty behind. I had trouble keeping him at heel with them in front. Fiance passed Dakota's lead to me, they walked either side of me, but he kept edging slightly ahead of Dakota, hmmm?

5. Last night Dakota left some food in her bowl for later as she always does, and later in the evening we caught Rusty guarding it from her, snarling and growling, he was told 'no' and fiance 'gave it back to Dakota'

6. Today there have been a few occasions where he has got hold of a toy she was playing with (admittedly she goes to him with it to play), then he faces the other way with it and guards it from her, snarling and growling, which scares us a little, as we want her to be able to play with the toys like she always has I guess, he has no problems with us taking the toys or food back from him, so he understands we are the 'pack leader/s', but seems to see her at the bottom of the 'heirarchy'?

7. Fiance went out for a short time earlier, and Rusty didn't really greet him at the door as you would expect, he was stand-offish, we were slightly worried maybe he was guarding me against fiance, so we tested by hugging, etc, no response, so that's ok, but he is definitely guarding me from Dakota a lot.

8. In play, Rusty appears very submissive in that he's laying down a lot, and goes to the ground the minute Dakota yelps, but it also seems he's spending the whole time testing to see if she'll let him dominate her/mount her, I'm guessing this is normal, but if he does begin to mount her (by this I mean basically biting on to the rough of her neck at the top and putting at least one paw over her, not actually mounting, they are both desexed), do we let him dominate if she does, or do we intervene??

OK, I know it's long, I apologise, I just want to provide a lot of detail as clear as I can, is it too early to tell if he is trying to dominate over Dakota, or is this just the 'beginning'. And, what can anyone tell me about the pack idea in terms of any 'pecking order', we've had our trainer from puppy kinda tell us we are the leaders, then there is a pecking order amongst dogs, then we have also heard others (primarily Cesar Milan) say, if you are the leader, there should be no dominance amongst the dogs, they should all be equal in most circumstances.

There is another point we are afraid of, can't remember where we saw/heard this one, but if we defend the submissive dog in any way from the dominant dog, we are only creating further tension and the submissive dog will get picked on even worse?!?

I stress, we are not giving up as we know/have been told it takes time for a dog to settle in a new home, we also know that a dog being submissive is not a bad thing, it can still be 'happy/comfortable', but we are concerned that if Dakota does become the submissive dog, a lot of what we know as her personality may fade away? Ultimately we want what is best for both dogs, which we thought was good company, but we kind of forgot that our relationship with her might change dramatically, which is a bit scary/sad for us to contemplate.

So, any thoughts please? Also, feel free to tell me I'm thinking too much, or just that I'm a total moron?!?!

Edited January 5, 2009 by pip1981

[Cosmolo]

Let me try to respond to your points in order-

1. Following you around is not always a good thing, i would be keen to ensure over the next few weeks he spends some time away from you so that he does not become anxious when you're not present. Teaching a nice bed stay and having him on lead at times in the house can help

2. I would have corrected Dakota before Rusty had a chance to growl. I have 4 dogs and none of them approach the others when eating. You could feed separately to avoid the issue or work on it at feeding time, redirecting Dakota to her own bowl. Rusty can then learn that you will take care of it for him so there is no need to guard.

3. I would have him on lead or use a diary/ ckipboard as a body block and either guide him away immediately or give a correction if he persists. Dakota must also follow the same rules though- she doesn't get to be pushy when he is getting pats

4. Would NOT put this down to dominance- excitability and lack of training is far more likely

5. Dakota's bowl needs to be removed- a multi dog household does not allow for a dog to leave their food and come back to it later.

6. Make sure you give Dakota opportunities to play with toys on her own. There is a difference between resource guarding and what i would describe as guarding in play- its hard to know which he is doing without seeing him. My dogs play with toys alot and when the younger one approached my older girl she growls and gives teeth displays- before bouncing around some more.

7. I think you have a dog who is resource guarding and need to engage a professional to come and help you with setting up a successful multi dog household if you are worried about him guarding you from Dakota.

8. I would not allow him to mount her

With regards to defending the submissive dog- you should not favour any of the dogs IMO. So if you are going to say Rusty can't push Dakota away from you, the same goes for Dakota. You need to be clear and consistent and set up the situations where there are problems to teach both dogs how to behave. Its a new dynamic and Dakota will need to adjust as Rusty will need to settle into a new home. you can help this process with clear and consistent leadership and training immediately.

Dogs don't mount to show what sex they are in most cases- particularly desexed dogs. It can be dominance, exploratory and sometimes play. Where did you get Rusty from? Is this Rusty the red kelpie from AAPS?

Edited January 5, 2009 by Cosmolo

[SkySoaringMagpie]

1 - Deal with the dog in front of you. His history might be interesting, but ultimately what you have here is a dog who is interested in what you're doing. That's a useful thing to work with, hypothesising about his past is less useful

2 - Guarding food is a behaviour that has served dogs well for thousands of years. It doesn't always fit into a modern household with people who want the dog to be "nice" to the other dogs in the household, but it's totally normal. Ours are all separated when we feed them, not just for behavioural reasons but because they are on different diets, and we don't free feed. Separate them at mealtimes.

3 - I have a dog that does this. I ignore him and continue to pat the other dog. I also make the demanding dog work before he gets pats and I can train him easily any time because he's a fool for pats and attention. It's not dominance in my view, it's just going after what is "good stuff for dogs". If Rusty will work for attention and pats, you have it made - be grateful and use it!

4 - OK, now you are really overthinking it. Some dogs do like to lead on, but some are just more "on their toes" or keen to find out what is around the corner. I can think of two of ours where one will want to stream ahead and the other ambles. The ambler is the more dominant one. Identify the behaviour you want on walks, and train it. Just as a side note I don't "heel" on walks - walks in our household are for reading doggie email (politely) and exploring. Heeling is working time, not walking time.

5 - In a household of more than one dog, no dog gets the luxury of leaving a bit until later. Humans respect the last bit of chocolate (sometimes). Dogs do not as a rule. Take up their food if they haven't eaten it in the allotted time. They'll soon learn that saving leftovers is not an option.

6 - Not necessarily, he just wants the toys and is motivated to guard them from her. Not everything is about dominance. I can take anything from any of our dogs and not worry about my fingers, but they will sometimes put on a display with each other about something as stupid as a stick, or a sock, or a piece of fluff. If I see unacceptable behaviour around an object I take it away.

7 - Over thinking again. If he's more bonded to you for whatever reason then he doesn't have to greet your fiance with adoration. I usually get home later than my OH. My dogs go into somersaults, my OH's old Afghan might lift his head to check that it's an acceptable human but otherwise does not give a shit. When I call him in from the yard tho', he listens. I don't have get the same attention from him as he gives to his favourite human, I just need to get an acceptable working level of attention.

8 - Work out what behaviour you're happy with, and intervene if you're not happy. Mine hump hither and thither - they have become practised at avoiding an unwanted hump as well. You will develop an eye for what is safe testing and what is getting unacceptable.

I would drop the dominance theorising and when you see something you are not happy with ask yourself:

- What is it about this that bothers me? Is it my human values that are offended, or is it something that may negatively impact my dogs' quality of life?

- What behaviour would I like to see instead? How can I train that behaviour? Is it more appropriate to put in place a management solution?

[aquaticmalamute]

Good on you for rescuing the little guy pip

In our previous experience with her meeting other dogs for 'playdates', she is very well socialised and knows how to read other dogs of all ages, but being young and excitable and possibly not the perfectly trained dog, does occasionally annoy 'not-so-playful' dogs. Even still, she is easily put in her place by them, for eg. her mum who we have visited says hello, but won't tolerate her playing, so she snarls, and that's the end of that. But, in most of her meetings with male dogs, she has seemed the dominant one to us (and we are told by Samoyed breeders, that the girls are the bosses?), for eg. if they have tried to display dominant behaviour like mounting, she hasn't ever submitted to them, but in saying that, looking back, there was one dog who she resorted to hiding from because he simply overpowered her in weight and strength, and in all honestly was a bit dopey.

This sounds like normal puppy behaviour, learning her boundaries and doggie manners. Young dogs are also prone to 'brain farts' and over step these boundaries without meaning to, a quick snap by the older dog is a reminder to pay attention Oh, I also find that some bitches throughly enjoy the attentions of a humping male (desexed bitches included)

He approached with tail between legs and head down, then proceeded to very slowly and intently bow to Dakota. We had only ever seen a fast kind of play-bow, we weren't familiar with this behaviour, the attendant explained that is was 'the greatest sign of respect amongst dogs', then they continued to sniff each other's rears, etc, he kept bowing and lowering himself to her and 'kissing' her, of course, we thought it was all very sweet, and the attendant said she loved the dynamics between them, thought they'd be a great match, etc, etc, there were occasions when he did put his head over her back and begi to mount, the attendant said this was just him letting her know he was a boy, not dominance (seemed a little unusual to us, but she was the expert, not us)??? so we went away thinking about it. We never intended on getting a 'working breed' dog, or a dog as large as a Kelpy (he's a little bit taller than Dakota and only about 3.5kgs heavier), but we talked about it with each other and some dog-experienced aquaintances, and decided, breed and size didn't really matter, only that they got along, and we committed ourselves to the exercise/mental stimulation a Kelpy needs, etc.

Sounds like he is a very sweet boy. Lowering himself and licking at Dakota's face indicates that he is submissive and letting her know that she is in charge. The play bow and paw on the back is an invitation to play. The humping could certainly be a 'boy thing' depending on how long ago he was snipped.

Oh and Dakota is a 'working breed' too Perhaps you could take them both to a herding workshop? Both dogs would benifit from being allowed to do what they were bred to do.

We only picked him up yesterday afternoon, we had Dakota with us. He jumped right in the back of our wagon, no probs, we secured them, then began the hour drive home, we were entertained on the way home, with his amazing focus on the cars zooming by, definitely nothing we are familiar with, lol, I can really imagine him atop sheep, but anyway, Dakota just lays there all relaxed like he's not even there, and he pretty much stands the entire trip.

My old girl does the same thing - will NOT sit down in the car. I find this is because of the lack of early conditioning to car rides - Kodi hardly went anywhere in the car and felt safer standing up than laying down. Now Boh who has been in the car on a bi-weekly basis since 8 weeks old is happy to sleep the trip and 'relax' Rusty watching the cars intently is probably just instinct kicking in

OK, I know it's long, I apologise, I just want to provide a lot of detail as clear as I can, is it too early to tell if he is trying to dominate over Dakota, or is this just the 'beginning'. And, what can anyone tell me about the pack idea in terms of any 'pecking order', we've had our trainer from puppy kinda tell us we are the leaders, then there is a pecking order amongst dogs, then we have also heard others (primarily Cesar Milan) say, if you are the leader, there should be no dominance amongst the dogs, they should all be equal in most circumstances.

I believe that there is the dominant bitch and dog (you and your OH) then a pecking order below that. My family pecking order is myself and my OH, Bohden then Kodi. I always make sure that Boh gets fed first and attention first.

There is another point we are afraid of, can't remember where we saw/heard this one, but if we defend the submissive dog in any way from the dominant dog, we are only creating further tension and the submissive dog will get picked on even worse?!?

You should have a set of household rules, but outside of those rules I would let the dogs sort it out as long as neither of them gets hurt. For example there is strictly no fighting, no teasing/pestering, no stealing toys/food etc in our household. If there is an argument about something petty then I let the dogs work it out themselves. You might find "The Dogs Mind" a great book to read on why dogs interact the way they do

I stress, we are not giving up as we know/have been told it takes time for a dog to settle in a new home, we also know that a dog being submissive is not a bad thing, it can still be 'happy/comfortable', but we are concerned that if Dakota does become the submissive dog, a lot of what we know as her personality may fade away? Ultimately we want what is best for both dogs, which we thought was good company, but we kind of forgot that our relationship with her might change dramatically, which is a bit scary/sad for us to contemplate.

So, any thoughts please? Also, feel free to tell me I'm thinking too much, or just that I'm a total moron?!?!

Believe me if Dakota slips to the Beta position to Rusty she won't be upset. Dogs don't think like that and i'm sure Dakota would be very happy in her new role (much less stress and responsibilites to worry about!)

When Kodi slipped to Beta to Bohden it changed absolutely nothing, she is the same dog as she always was - our relationship hasn't changed the slightest

Phew! Now for your other questions!

1) Welcome to a 'one man dog' breed. They certainly are a huge step from our independant northern breeds! Takes a little getting used to I think.

2) Resource guarding is not a dominant behavour, it is simply the dog defending his meal/toy. Bohden is a resource guarder and it's not because of dominance, he is insecure about his hard earned posession being taken away. It takes alot of patience to break them of this mindframe.

3) Ignoring him is the way to go. Don't forget that he is new to your household and is learning the rules/testing the boundaries - this will continue for quite some time yet.

4) I would say this is because he has pent up energy not dominance. Mine both start off edging in front of eachother but by the time we are heading home they have found a good pace. Don't let them walk out in front of you either, I like to keep my dogs one on each side and thier shoulders not going in front of my side.

5) Pick up all/any left over food. Don't give Rusty the opportunity to resource guard. He doesn't know that it is Dakota's food, he found it and he wants it for himself.

6) Again resource guarding and nothing to do with dominance. Boh stashes his toys under the car because he knows that Kodi can't get them there. Don't forget that it's a frame of mind and fear of his posession being taken away. You will need to work on teaching him to share (don't worry I am in the same boat )

7) Perhaps he has been mistreated by men in the past? Thus the reason he seeks out you as opposed to your OH?

8) Let them work it out. Rusty is probably still dealing with hormones if he has recently been desexed. If Dakota doesn't want to tolerate this behaviour she will certainly tell him to bugger off!

[pip1981]

Hi Cosmolo,

Thanks very much for your detailed reply, it is very much appreciated, as we are feeling a little helpless here at the moment.

Your clear responses to my points do make a lot of sense, and we will try over the next weeks to put your suggestions into action, unfortunately we both work full-time and will therefore not get to see a lot of the interaction between them during the day. We know this situation is not ideal, that is why my fiance deliberately took today off and I ended up coming home early. I do, however feel confident that their interactions would not develop into anything dangerous. At this point, we both admit that the dogs are more comfortable with everything than we are, it's quite a strange feeling.

And, yes, Rusty is the red Kelpie from AAPS, we all met him on Saturday and had a long 'meet-and-greet', went home to think/talk it over, and went back for him yesterday morning.

Anita, just saw your reply too, thank you also for the point by point detailed responses, all very helpful, but it does get difficult when you get so much different advice, do we just choose a person to listen to and stick with it, or take what sounds the best answer to us on the different points and make up our own mind? sorry, it's just so confusing, and believe me, i know i'm reading too much into it and getting too emotional, it's a problem i have, and i haven't been 'trained' out of it...lol

once again, i do really appreciate the advice, maybe we will ask a trainer (from when Dakota attended puppy kinda) to come by for a visit for peace of mind

[Cosmolo]

If it helps we do know Rusty as we temp tested him just last week. Are you going to bring him to the classes at the shelter?

[pip1981]

Hi AM,

Thanks for your response also, just saw it after my last post, sorry.

You have definitely made me feel better, especially knowing you understand Dakota's nature as a northern breed, and yep, we know she's a working breed too, i guess i just meant we didn't imagine a bigger dog at all, unless it was another Sam, and we have already considered agility for Dakota, so this is definitely something we could do with both of them some day...never thought of the herding for Dakota, but will consider it, thanks..

I like the way you treat your dogs and your rules, now I just have to learn to be tougher I guess, I wouldn't say Dakota previously had run of the house or anything, she definitely knows her place with us, but the rules have been easy to maintain with one dog, I never really thought about that side of having 2 dogs, gonna be hard work, but thanks heaps

Cosmolo, I thought I recognized the name 'Underdog training', just looked again at the flyer from the shelter, unfortunately we live an hour away, so it's not really convenient for us to train with you guys, we might have to find somewhere closer to home...thanks for mentioning it anyway

[Cosmolo]

It does become second nature to manage a multi dog household once you get used to it! I have pm'd you too

[aquaticmalamute]

Hi AM,

Thanks for your response also, just saw it after my last post, sorry.

You have definitely made me feel better, especially knowing you understand Dakota's nature as a northern breed, and yep, we know she's a working breed too, i guess i just meant we didn't imagine a bigger dog at all, unless it was another Sam, and we have already considered agility for Dakota, so this is definitely something we could do with both of them some day...never thought of the herding for Dakota, but will consider it, thanks..

That's ok, I take forever to post anyway so I don't blame you for missing it

Good to hear you are feeling better about the whole situation. I know how confusing it can be running a 'pack', I was a one dog owner for 8 years and bringing another dog into my life was very hard to get my head around. Now I just take one day at a time, read up as much as I can about pack dynamics and behaviour and try not to feel too attached to one dog. I love them both but must remind myself every day that they are dogs not little furry kids with the same emotions and thoughts as me.

Yep, I find it very hard to get good advice about my dogs as the northern breeds are very different to your average dog, lots of methods don't work as the Mals have a whole different way of communicating. Oh and I know you knew that Dakota is a working breed, it's just the way you worded it that I had a little chuckle and felt like doing this:

I like the way you treat your dogs and your rules, now I just have to learn to be tougher I guess, I wouldn't say Dakota previously had run of the house or anything, she definitely knows her place with us, but the rules have been easy to maintain with one dog, I never really thought about that side of having 2 dogs, gonna be hard work, but thanks heaps

I think it's very hard at first to detach yourself emotionally and deal with them as dogs, but it does get easier As long as you set out the basic rules you would like to use in your house and stick to them it gets kinda easy to be tough on them - be firm yet kind. Respect the dogs, let them know what you will and will not tolerate and they in turn will respect you back and be content knowing their boundaries and limitations within your house. The 'nothing in life is free' programme is great to base your household rules on

Like you I let Kodi do as she pleased but she still knew what was expected of her, I thought adding another dog would be a great idea and a farly easy process, boy was I wrong! And to think i'm thinking of adding dog number 3

[Just Midol]

In my household is it:

-Acceptable for my dogs to guard their food bowls.

-Unacceptable for them to remove their food from their bowls and guard it in another spot.

-Unacceptable for another dog to approach another dogs food, but if it does occur, the one who guarded (growled) is not punished for it unless they guard their food from ME.

My little shit of a sibe (gizmo) used to hide bones in key places (like the door outside) so Lily couldn't go outside as he'd guard, so I had to teach them the second rule of feeding (second in the above list) but it was hard enforcing it so I just feed them separately now.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Anita, just saw your reply too, thank you also for the point by point detailed responses, all very helpful, but it does get difficult when you get so much different advice, do we just choose a person to listen to and stick with it, or take what sounds the best answer to us on the different points and make up our own mind?

Ultimately you have to make up your own mind. Cosmolo has seen the dog, so is in a better position to comment about what might be going on. The value of having second, third, and fourth ideas is that if something doesn't appear to ring true or to work you can try something else. Keep other ideas in the back of your mind as an option you can try if you need to, don't over-analyse to find The One Right Way. Dog training for your average owner is usually a processs of exploration - and it should be, really.

Also, while I live in a house with multiple dogs (5 dogs) and have had to develop some skill in multiple dog situations, I am no Kelpie expert nor a spitz breed expert. If Kelpie-i posted, you would bear in mind that she knows Kelpies when weighing up her advice against someone else's for example.

Advice to be wary of is advice that is more about the poster's ego or ideology than about helping you with ideas to try. You will spot this kind of advice pretty easily.

[Kavik]

I agree with Cosmolo

As you are finding, Kelpies are different to Northern breeds Very active, on the go, inquisitive and fun!

I feed my dogs separately as one can be a food guarder and stealer (Zoe). That way I know everyone has had the right amount of food and nobody gets bullied while eating. Certainly there is no way I would leave food around or an unfinished meal around all my dogs.

The behaviour while walking, most likely excitement and lack of training. And many dogs don't like being the one behind! They like everyone to be together.

I haven't had any experience with dogs guarding someone from their partner, I would get professional advice for that one. My dogs all love my OH (not always reciprocated though )

[kelpiechick]

Anita, your post was excellent

Pip don't forget this kelpie has only been in your home for a matter of hours/days.

It is most likely that both dogs are 'feeling their way' in regard to pecking order at the moment. Plus the breeders of my kelpies always stress that the behaviour you see from your kelpie in the first week is not always a true indication - this has been true with both of mine. Plus you are also getting yours as an adult with 'baggage' - and I don't mean this in a negative sense, just that he has had prior learning experiences which will shape his behaviour.

One of mine does the 'following around thing' too but has no problems being left alone either. Following around can be very typical of some kelpies. Plus there may be different reasons for it. My young kelpie follows me around and tries to get me to interact with him as he wants to work/train. If this is the reason, it is important that you don't give in to his 'demands' - interaction happens on my terms not theirs. Also important to make sure you teach an 'off switch' as well as encouraging the 'on'. Mine have quiet spots in their crates and are happy to go there when directed.

One of mine also food guards which as Anita points out is a natural dog behaviour and does not cause any problems here as I am aware of it and try to manage it. I usually feed them separately, but all 4 dogs have bones together in their run and any (very rare) squabbles are sorted out between them very quickly. (LMidol raised an excellent point in that the food guarding should never be directed against you though. Right from puppies, I have made sure I could take food from mine without a problem. I would guess that this is probably easier to train with a puppy though and you may want to get some advice about how to train this with an adult dog.

One thing that I personally don't like with any of my dogs is the habit of them leaving food to come back to later. (As some other posters have also pointed out) I usually have a set time for them to eat their dinner and if they walk off and leave their bowl, then I pick it up and remove it. My youngest kelpie is the only one that used to do this and he learnt very quickly that he can't just wander in and out and eat when he chooses. As pack leader I want to control the resources, including food. I don't leave toys lying around either, they play when I choose and with what I choose. (Not including things like Kongs, etc. as they always have access to these in their runs.)

Some kelpies tend to be 'one person dogs' - they will often appear indifferent to everyone else except their 'chosen one'.

This is a generalisation, again my youngest kelpie fits this mould, but the oldest one does not, but it is something to be aware of as it is described by many as typical behaviour.

You need a very clear set of 'rules' for your kelpie. They respond very well to black and white, not shades of grey and indeed are 'masters of psychology.' Most do not appear overtly dominant but if you are not careful you can suddenly find that the 'control' has shifted to them without you even realising it. Most other posters have also pointed this out I think. As Rusty is still finding his place in your household, I would concentrate on you and your fiance establishing leadership, and the dogs will usually work it out for themselves.

Most kelpies do not respond well to harsh training methods, or even compulsion training methods as they are bred to be thinking, problem solving dogs who like to demonstrate initiative. (The trick is steering this 'kelpie initiative' so that it matches what you want them to do.) They are usually ideal candidates for positive training techniques. Again I generalise, as I'm sure you get 'atypical' in each dog breed. I find that mine respond well to leadership and direction but not control - and finding the balance between these is not easy at times. I don't mean control in the sense that you need to able to control your dog's behaviour, of course you do - more the tight, rigid, nit-picking control freak type of control. (I hope that makes sense- maybe dominance would be a better word than control???)

The 'learn to earn' program (usually referred to on here as NILIF) works brilliantly with them as it gives them a chance to exercise their minds. Sure there are plenty of threads on here about it?

In the 'Kelpie thread' I posted a link for you to my blog, which has quite a few reflections on training kelpies and the kelpie temperament if you want more information. (Although I am no expert, these are just from my own kelpie owning and training observations)

If you are interested in joining a kelpie discussion group, where you can ask questions to trainers who have experience with kelpies, then PM me and I will send you the link.

I can also recommend a training and behaviour book written just for kelpie owners if that helps.

Edited January 6, 2009 by kelpiechick

[Kavik]

I have also found Kelpies are not keen on a guide/place system. They catch on to clickers etc very fast and do enjoy working this way.

While they are often described as 'one-man dogs', what does that mean? Mine enjoy the company of other people but if we are working will not pay attention to others, just me which is what I want. I do tend to have more problems with attention with my GSD, who really does like to smooch others.

[Cosmolo]

In my experience working dog breeds respond very well to drive training too. I would expect Rusty to have quite high prey drive once he settles into a home and relaxes. So you will need to teach an off switch too! They are typically bright and intelligent dogs who enjoy a challenge- and i find mental stimulation rather than physical stimulation to be the key!

Just to clarify kavik- i didn't mean guiding him into an obedience position (although from memory he guided quite well as its part of the temp test) but just guiding him away when he is being pushy. Not sure which you meant when you said they don't respond well to being guided?

[pip1981]

I just wanted to thank everyone else who has replied today, for their thoughts and advice, it seems a lot of people on here are much more experienced than I, and that's why I love to get your opinions, even though sometimes it's hard for me to get my head around...

I agree that we have been overthinking a lot of the bahavioural things we have seen since bringing Rusty home, unfortunately that's something I tend to do a lot- think too much that is, and I'm not ready to tackle my personal 'demons' at this point in time, if ever, hehehe, too hard

We haven't let Dakota 'save food for later' since the guarding happened, I guess that was common sense, but still hard for us to take as 'humans', as it feels we are taking something away from Dakota, I know, I know, she doesn't see it that way.

And, Kelpiechick, you also mentioned not having most toys out, I completely understand the reasoning and that it has to be done in a multi-dog household, but once again, hard for us, because Dakota has always had access to them, feels like we're making too many changes, when everything was fine the way it was.

We did teach Dakota as a pup that we can take toys/food/bones/treats/attention away from her whenever we please, and she learnt easily not to respond to that negatively. So far, Rusty has not been bothered at all if we remove food/toys from him either, we think he really does understand that we are his leaders, but at this stage in the game I suppose it could still be 'fear of the unknown', that makes him submit to us so easily. The guarding is definitely only between the dogs so far, I guess Dakota doesn't guard because she's never had to compete, well not since she was a pup, she actually goes to Rusty with her toys to play and isn't perturbed if he takes them, it's if she does try to take one back that he guards. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.

I guess I'm only trying to say, we are taking a lot of people's advice into consideration, and doing our best as 'amateurs' at this. In all honesty, after reading what you and the experts have to say, both dogs seem much more well-adjusted than we are!!! But, as AM said 'they are dogs' and I think that is why they react to this one way, and we, another. With all the changes we have to make in our household due to this addition to the family, I think it's only human nature for us to wonder if it was the right thing to do in the first place, after-all Dakota has always seemed so well adjusted and still knows how to be a dog with dogs (to our minds, she was happy). Don't get me wrong, she also seems 'happy' and comfortable with Rusty here, but if we were all happy before, and now we're not 'all happy', we have kind of defeated one of the purposes of getting another dog, and that was to fulfill us? I know it must sound very selfish to be having these feelings, however we thought we wanted to provide a dog in need with a good home, but are we really a 'good home' if we aren't going to welcome him into our hearts. We have definitely welcomed him in the home, he slept on the bed for goodness sake, we are doing everything we can to make him feel at home, because we know it's not fair and he's done nothing wrong, but we haven't truly 'let him in yet', and at this point it feels like we may never and I know that would be cruel!

Let me state, this is not by any means a final word on the situation, just my thoughts 'today', and of course, these may change in time. I'll keep everyone posted on our progress. Please feel free to add your thoughts after 'today's ramblings', even if they aren't what I want to hear.....

[corvus]

Anita, I love your posts.

I feed Penny in a crate usually, and Kivi gets the run of the yard with his bone. This is partly because Penny needs to lose weight and partly because she's the one that gets obsessed with food and she easily feels insecure about it. If she sits in the crate and snarls at Kivi every time he walks past and gives me sad puppy looks every time I walk past, I assume she isn't actually hungry and take the food away. I give her about ten minutes. I used to put their bowls up after their mince meal but I have become lazy lately as they both finish so fast and haven't been getting mental about the bowls on the floor. Kivi lets me know when he is hungry by licking Penny's bowl. It's much easier this way if you have a dog that feels insecure about food, and kinder on the insecure one if they know they have a place they can eat where they will be safe from the other dog.

As everyone else has said, just remember that he is still settling in and working both you guys and Dakota out. He will want to figure out how far he can push Dakota so he knows when it's a good idea to leave her alone. Penny is the same.

I also agree that you set your rules and otherwise leave the dogs to it. In my house, I won't stand for stealing food or snapping for no real reason other than that Penny is feeling old and grumpy. They still do it, but they know they'll get kicked out of the house if I catch them at it.

[kelpiechick]

Pip FWIW I think you are doing a wonderful job so far.

It's definitely a change adding another dog, but it is very early days yet.

It's only natural to wonder if you are doing the right thing. I went through all this when I added my second dog, but with the added challenge of the older dog not wanting to have anything to do with the new one and the problems this caused.

It was hard and I felt exactly as you do at times, but we got through it, lots of trial and error, and I'm sure we made lots of mistakes but we survived them, as did the dogs. I now have 4 dogs and wouldn't have it any other way. Looking at adding Number 5 later this year, although my 'original' dog turned 14 yesterday so not sure how much longer he'll be around.

In regard to not leaving the toys/food around - this would still be the same for me in a single dog household, it's not necessarily a multi dog thing. As the 'leader' I like to control all the resources for my dog, whether toys, food, etc. so he doesn't decide when he'll eat/play, etc. It's more a training thing. If your dog has access to everything whenever he wants, then you don't control the resources which does not put you in the position of 'power'.

The toys come out when we are training or just interacting with me in general. This also gives the toys more 'value' - which is important for me in agility training.

Doesn't mean their environment has to be 'sterile' with nothing in it. They have free access to kongs and puzzle balls in their run, as well as an Aussie dog home alone toy and a couple of large balls. (Also have access to meaty bones when noone is home.)

There are rarely any squabbles over these and as you have noticed already, they tend to sort it out themselves.

Please don't feel that things will not be as good for Dakota adding another dog. Sure, things won't be the same again, but in the long run I think you'll find the benefits to Dakota outweigh the negatives. And it sounds as if they are getting on great even after such a short time.

[pip1981]

corvus, i like your feeding method, i am letting dakota eat in the kitchen where she always has and i lay hers down first, rusty accepts that very well and doesn't bother her, i think he has learnt well, perhaps from other dogs at his previous home, heheh. i really understand your point of letting the insecure dog have another quiet place to eat, so rusty eats outside right at the living room door, where he can see us, and he seems very comfortable with that, it's nice and easy

kelpiechick, thanks again for all of your help/advice/suggestions, i would join the kelpie discussion if i thought i had room for another forum, lol, we'll see

it's very comforting to know I'm not the only one in the world that has ever felt this way about their dogs, thank-you, although it sounds like you had it rough with your first introduction, most people are probably wondering what the helll I've got to be worried about...

and i am feeling very guilty at the moment for even considering not keeping Rusty, actually, i hate feeling this way, but others have reminded me that the shelter provides a 'change of heart' period for a reason and i wouldn't be the worst person in the world if i changed my mind, keeping him only because of 'guilt/shame' would not be a good idea for us or him in the long run. on the other hand i feel like we have made some progress tonight (except for some herding issues-i've mentioned this on the kelpie thread), and some fondness in certainly creeping in, so we'll see....

[Cosmolo]

I would try to give it a little more time. See how you progress, it can be hard to go from single to multi dog household but most people i know would never go back after the initial settling in/ adjustment period.

But of course the shelter does take dogs back that have not worked out for whatever reason if thats what is needed.