9 Week Old And 2 Year Old Rough Playing

[pinkpony]

Hi, I'm new and I hope this is the right thread to post this into to. I'd really appreciate some training advice and general reassurance and/or guidance.

I have recently bought a Cavalier King Charles puppy as a companion for our 2 year old Cav. I adore the breed and have found training our older dog really easy and rewarding.

Willow (the 2 yo) is the most gentle, loving dog. She has always been very submissive with other dogs but seems to enjoy her playtimes. She is now very excited to have a permanent friend and Indi (now almost 10 weeks) thinks she is great fun.

However, because of her submissive nature, I am concerned that Willow is not teaching Indi about bite inhibition. She allows Indi to constantly hang off her pretty ears (which are getting very matted through all this chewing) and her tail. She runs, gently mouths and rolls Indi onto her back but never tells her enough is enough. The behaviour is at its worst when my fiance or I are actually there as Willow loves to play fetch and because she runs to us with a toy in her mouth, she either (a) can't tell Indi off or (b) can't play the game with us that she loves more than pats or food rewards.

They also make a lot of noise - low growling (not accompanied by teeth barring at all) and the occassional yelp or bark. They go at it so often that I'm also concerned they're not getting enough rest and that my neighbours are going to get annoyed!

We have tried distracting them both with toys, training etc but they will ignore us in preference to this rough game, which worries me a lot.

We have put Willow's bed up onto a table so that she can jump up there when she needs some time out, but she seems to tolerate it more often than not. We have also been crate training Indi, but it doesn't seem right to put her in her crate to stop a game is she's supposed to see it as her fun, special den.

Do we step in to stop this rough playing? How should I progress this? Or am I being an overly cautious mum?

I have enrolled Indi into puppy pre-school, which we start next week, so I'm hoping there's a big dominant puppy there that will teach her some respect!

Thanks for any advice. I would really appreciate the expertise of forum members.

[Cosmolo]

Congrats on your new pup! It is important that your pup socialises safely with some different dogs as it can be a problem if a dog is only used to playing with a super tolerant dog. There are a few things to keep in mind-

- Don't be surprised if your pup is shy and withdrawn at puppy school to start with. I have found that many puppies who have gotten used to playing with the resident dog are a little overwhelmed when surrounded by puppies that look and interact differently to what they are used to for the 1st week or two.

- Where are you going to puppy school? You do not want your pup to get told off by another puppy at this stage. Your puppy needs to have good experiences with your instructor teaching you when to intervene/ stop the puppy. Once this is well established it can be appropriate in somecircumstances for your pup to be told off by another dog who has bite inhibition themselves- they must not hurt your puppy or frighten them unnecesarily. I use one of my adult dogs for this at times- never another puppy who is in their formative stages- if another puppy tells your pup off and there is no intervention by the instructor (this should happen before thetelling off anyway) be careful! Puppy school should not be a free for all- there should be controlled interactions with a few pups at a time and supervision.

- I think its important that you teach both dogs a cue to settle down so that you can stop rough games when you wish to. I would always step in if your older dog looks like they have had enough rather than waiting for the telling off that never comes!

- Do make sure you give Willow some time to play fetch with you without the pup to harass her. You can either separate completely or use oit as an opportunity to teach the puppy to settle when their are exciting things going on. Leads and high value treats can help you to separate the dogs and get them to focus on you- don't let them go when they are frustrated and remember it will take time the first few times to getthem to settle- be persistent!!

[pinkpony]

Thank you Cosmolo, that sounds like great advice.

I realise I have been looking at taking Indi to puppy school from the wrong perspective. The school is run at the local vet - not the same one I took Willow to as we have since left the area, so I really don't know if they use the vet nurses or dog trainers. I guess I should find out.

I will also start working on a calm down cue right away. However, if I train this while they are 'playing' will it seem like I am rewarding the rough play-time rather than the ceasing of play-time?

Thank you also for reminding me about giving Willow plenty of time to play fetch by herself. We have been doing this by crating Indi (with treats to keep her content) but I like the idea of also using this time to teach restraint.

I need to remember this is a slow process and we have only had Indi for just over a week! She has already learnt to sit, drop and potty outside, so she is a clever girl and I know I can't expect too much. More than anything I just don't want to create problem dogs, so the guidance is much appreciated.

[Cosmolo]

You should certainly find out who the puppy school is run by and how they run their classes. There are puppy pre schools run by less experienced people because some places consider pups to be 'easy'. Remembr that you are dealing with the most critical time in your pups life for socialisation and this should influence the trainer/ instructor you choose. Whereabouts are you located?

With the calm down cue- initially use the word as they calm- it may be 5 minutes of just gentle holding before they start to calm to begin with. As they start to calm, use the word and then reward. Don't use the word as they are struggling or being frustrated because this is not the behaviour you want to pair with the command or reward. As they get better the command can come quicker until it is said before guiding/ helping the dogs and then reinforced. But you don't want to get into the habit of saying the command 5 times while they are continuing to play.

[pinkpony]

Thank you again. I will give that a go!

I'm in Western Australia, south of the river. I rang the vet and they said the classes were done with a trained professional but didn't provide a name or organisation. I'm starting to think I should look elsewhere.

[Cosmolo]

Just ask who the trainer is and if you can speak with them beforehand. I run puppy classes through a vet clinic and if anyone has queries, the vet clinic just passes them on to me and i speak to them before the classes. Its if you had a trainer not willing to speak to you ahead of time that i would be worried. They should be happy to answer any questions you have.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Cosmolo