MrsD Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Hi Mrs D. As you described is exactly how we do it and Maree has spent a fair bit of time working with us (as have others). We are currently working with the box to help Bindi understand the heel position better (it isn't working all that well either). She has dodged heel position since she was a puppy and has always moved out wide or turned side on. As you said, part of the issue is that I am tall and Bindi is tiny and I think she moves out to be able to look at me. In all fairness, I have spent much time focusing on tricks and things that she loves to learn and have avoided spending too much time working on heel position as I have found it too hard and frustrating . If I get slightly frustrated (I just have to groan or use a stern voice), Bindi just backs off and we have to stop or change to something more fun like tricks. Note to Self: "I must dig out the box and work on the heel position without getting frustrated - training is fun." I must say I am a bit confused by those of you who say that food does not follow every click. I will work Bindi through the clicker but she will still get food after a few seconds. I was told that a click always pays. Jules P - I have been working on heeling with food for more than 12 months now and am so generous with food that Bindi was eating more than double her daily food allowance in one training session ;) . It seems to me that I have kept the food in too long and too frequently. I don't want to do competition obedience but we are working on a dance routine so I do need a reliable heel position particularly when moving sideways and backward. I need to find a way to help her stick to my leg like glue ( is glue allowed?). I think you've already half answered your own question, yes, you do need to work & work & work at it ;) . Just out of curiosity, does she flip to heel & keep a static heel position? Or does she go wide even on stationary heel? I agree, its partly the little dog thing & partly the looking up bit as well, I know Jonty does it with me also, although he wasn't so bad when younger, he's got worse as he's got older (partly because he's not doing it on a regular basis I think) but as someone pointed out to me, I walk into him all the time - no wonder he wants to get out from under my feet ;) . If you can't get a good heel position whilst stationary I would concentrate on doing that. I know that Maree likes to use the box, but personally, once I taught Jarrah to move his hind end on the box, I took him off it & I started luring from front into heel position & he picked it up in a matter of days (thanx Pax ). If she does a nice heel position when stationary I would try the one step at a time luring thing (yes, over & over & over, you havent been doing your homework, have you? ;) ) & if she really has trouble with it perhaps try moving sideways (try away from her ) & try to get her to come into position, that way she may not feel so threatened. If worse comes to worse & her heeling isnt fantastic, you can still get a routine together - when I did my first routine which was at Dogmania in the first weekend in May, Jarrah had only been going to VIP for about 5 or 6 weeks & he didn't even know what heel position was . But we did a routine that enabled us to link some moves together with only about 2 or 3 steps of heel work & it managed to get us a 3rd at the Ekka so it cant have been too bad . Now that his heelwork has improved so much (but we still have a loooooong way to go before it's great, I'll admit Im like you, I like teaching more fun stuff :D ), Im working on my new routine which has a lot more heelwork in it but my Big Spender routine just shows that it can be done . Who's this Maree trainer god you speak of and does she come down to Melbourne No, but she does do seminars at Camp Tailwaggers & if you watch Australia's Got Talent season that's coming up you'll see her ;) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 This is such an interesting topic. As a novice I want to thank Luke for posting this - great educational thread I'm not out to have an agility or obedience dog as such but I am interested in teaching basic manners etc. Even though I don't have anything to add here I did want to make a comment based on an observation by my father who is staying with me atm. In his day he trained working dogs -kelpies and cattle dogs (he worked as a jackaroo) and he couldn't always rely on food as a reward given the impracticability of this from horseback Anyway, he made the observation that I was 'treating' Rodney too much and warned me to use praise/games more than food. I have done this, building up his appreciation for praise and touch by giving these things liberally, and I find that Rodney responds to praise as well so I'm glad that I've started this early. Certainly when starting new behaviours I will treat but I'm quite aware to fade food reliance once he knows. e.g sit is fairly standard now and if he slips I will return to food reward making sure to fade food soon after. Obviously agility and obedience is an entirely different game than sheep mustering but they're some of my thoughts anyway. One question regarding duration of a behaviour: do I treat after the behaviour has remained for the length I require ie several seconds or do I treat the moment he has performed the behaviour and then teach 'wait' then treat again for holding the behaviour. I ask this because Rodney breaks the behaviour and gets antsy if I dont treat immediately. He is still a baby after all. I hope I'm asking this correctly. Sorry if this seems a hijack but I think it is in keeping with the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I respect where you are coming from as you mentioned some very very respectable trainers, however are you positive that they say every single click must be followed by a treat forever? I remember a few years ago being questioned on this point, and a very good trainer friend and I looked in one of Karen Pryor's book (can't remember which one and it wasn't my book so I can't check) and confirmed that she too says that you don't need to treat every single click. I wish I had the book so that I could find the section.... sorry about that. Hey I'm not positive about anything in this life except 'death and taxes' - and the fact that I've been spending too much time sitting at this computer lately instead of playing with my dogs, which stops after this post ! A clicker doesn't come with a contract and a set of concrete 'rules' - it is a conditioned reinforcer that I guess you can condition to use in any way you want - whether 'correct' or 'incorrect' is semantics depending on the purpose you have for using it. I'm sure all clicker trainers bring their own individual perspective to training - for me, it's agility plus I am very big on consistency. Therefore, when I read training articles about using a clicker, I tend to stick with following recommendations of trainers from an agility background - Susan Garrett, Moe Strenfel, Angelica Steinker, Elicia Calhoun - all of whom use the 'click always means treat' philosophy. For me, this makes sense as being very consistent. Plus apart from the odd 'sharpening up' session, I only use the clicker when I am teaching a new behaviour, therefore I want the extremely high reward rate of 'click = treat'. So the clicker is conditioned to mean one thing only and this never changes. Once the behaviour has reached a particular level of consistency, I then put away the clicker and condition a verbal bridge - which does NOT got rewarded after every use. So in this respect I am doing the same as you, maybe just going about it in a slightly different way. I have no doubt that you can condition your clicker to not always equal a treat, but for me, I don't want to as I am very happy with the results I have achieved using it in this way, and the strength of the behaviours this has created. But for others bringing their own individual perspectives to their training, if it works for you, then why not? I think it is also important to remember that dog training is evolving all the time, and something you read in a book one day may change a few years down the track. If you read some of the very early clicker training material from the 60's in relation to marine mammals, you will find trainers like Gary Wilkes advocating that the click does indeed end the behaviour. If it wasn't for other trainers taking these original ideas, experimenting with them and then the resultant changes happening, clicker training would not have the depth that it does today. And for the record, Karen Pryor 'Don't Shoot the Dog' (revised 1999 edition) : 'It is necessary to stress 'one click equals one treat' as a general rule, in order to teach people to shape behaviour efficiently.' She may very well have revised this by now as that was quite a while ago so you could be right in that you have read otherwise, especially as she uses the words 'as a general rule.' I think your level of experience as a trainer can also influence the way you use it, which fits with the context of the quote too. No wonder it's confusing for 'newbies'. Off to play with my dogs !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 One question regarding duration of a behaviour: do I treat after the behaviour has remained for the length I require ie several seconds or do I treat the moment he has performed the behaviour and then teach 'wait' then treat again for holding the behaviour. I ask this because Rodney breaks the behaviour and gets antsy if I dont treat immediately. He is still a baby after all. I hope I'm asking this correctly. Sorry if this seems a hijack but I think it is in keeping with the thread. Like kelpiechick says - each trainer might have their own method. The typical method is to simply slightly delay the click/treat and slowly increase the duration of the delay. So... "sit" pause click/treat release "sit" pause, pause click/treat release Now to teach the release...what I do... I click/treat for the behavior, if he holds the behavior, I click treat again, pause, and again, pause, and again. Then give a release cue. So... "Sit" pause pause click/treat pause pause pause click/treat pause pause pause click "free" treat hm.... I need to think about this, I'm not necessarily being very clear to the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I never delay my marker word. Sit mark the sit bridge mark the stay treat release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I never delay my marker word. Sit mark the sit bridge mark the stay treat release What's your mark as opposed to your bridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 ok, so a mark is a 'click' or a 'good doggie' right? Oh heck, possibly I'm just thick but, what's a bridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) hm....I need to think about this, I'm not necessarily being very clear to the dog. It's pretty clear to me, though I'm not a dog :rolleyes: I hope it's clear anyhow coz I've been working on a similar version of this today. So far Roddy seems to be over it but he's being a good sport and humouring his crazy human mummy At least he'll sleep well tonight. Edited January 3, 2009 by dogon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) A mark and a bridge are different words for the same thing, that's what I learned anyway. One word that has been paired with food, or a click, whistle, particular noise that represents the same thing. Edited January 3, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A mark is a verbal clicker. A bridge is well think of it as a bridge! Some thing that spans point A to B. So you have your pup in a stay (it is maybe just learning). You say 'good stay, good pup, good stay'. That is a bridge. Or in a recall. Pup is coming but tentative. You give more encouragement. That is a bridge. Or in shaping, you might say good pup, but not quite, keep trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I learned same as Staff N Toller that they are the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) A mark is a verbal clicker. A bridge is well think of it as a bridge! Some thing that spans point A to B. So you have your pup in a stay (it is maybe just learning). You say 'good stay, good pup, good stay'. That is a bridge. Or in a recall. Pup is coming but tentative. You give more encouragement. That is a bridge. Or in shaping, you might say good pup, but not quite, keep trying. True clicker trainers would call that....well.....hot air. In some situations such as recalls at club dogs certainly need us to use happy words as encouragement. With normal confident dogs who know what a bridge is the charged up word; clicker; whistle is the only sound you need. A bridge in dog training is a signal to the dog that the behaviour he has performed has been done correctly. The bridge marks the behaviour as being correct and indicates to the dog that his reward is coming. The bridge signal can be either a word, such as ‘yes’ or a sound such as made by a clicker or by the use of a small whistle. The bridge can be used successfully when introducing new behaviours and when helping a timid dog to cope in a stressful situation. http://www.petdogtraining.com.au/about-us/...d-training.html Google book search- Lindsay 2005 When I submitted video of myself to Kerrie Haynes-Lovell teaching one of my dogs to crawl I was using a clicker but also using "good" as reinforcement (bad habit) and on the grading sheet was the comment "trust the bridge!" i.e. shutup. :cool: That's when I really got it. When I work with pups at puppy school and my own dogs at home I am mostly silent apart from the bridge and lots of razzing up on finishing the exercise. Edited January 3, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) I learnt the same thing re bridge... The mark/click is a bridge between the behavior and the reward. "Yes" is the common bridge word. But it's semantics anyway. I do a similar thing to you sometimes Jules. "Stay" . . "goood boy" . . . "goood boy" . . . Click Free Treat ...But it's not something I want to get into the habit of. I'm not sure it's wise to be relying on encouragement during long duration behaviors. At least for obedience. added after S'n'Ts comment... Yep, you are right - I should shut up! Going outside for quick session.. Edited January 3, 2009 by Luke W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I've been caught out more than once saying "good" to Geordie in a stay, as he has two bridges charged up clicker and "good" and mine ends the behaviour so bang- he breaks his stay. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Arr well my trainer who has actually worked with dolphins must be talking shit then. I'll leave you all to it as I don't actually have a problem with reliance on food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) Arr well my trainer who has actually worked with dolphins must be talking shit then. I'll leave you all to it as I don't actually have a problem with reliance on food. Hope you didn't take any offence to anything I said. The whole 'reliance on food' thing is mainly about trialling. I'm happy to walk around with a pocket of kibble for the rest of my life and hand it out after every second command. But I can't do that in the ring can i? ps - disastrous session :lol: - distracting cricketers on the green, a found lamb chop bone and he'd just had dinner so even the food wasn't enough to keep him focused on me. Wasn't much interested in tug either. Tried to eat his targeting yoghurt lid. arghhhh Edited January 3, 2009 by Luke W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogon Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A mark is a verbal clicker. A bridge is well think of it as a bridge! Some thing that spans point A to B. So you have your pup in a stay (it is maybe just learning). You say 'good stay, good pup, good stay'. That is a bridge. Or in a recall. Pup is coming but tentative. You give more encouragement. That is a bridge. Or in shaping, you might say good pup, but not quite, keep trying. Thanks for clearing that up for me JulesP. Perfectly clear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Diesel and Zoe sometimes try to pick up target plates too Kaos doesn't. Diesel and Zoe will also go to a treat bag if I send them and go eagerly to try to get the treat. Kaos will go to it but will not put his nose near the bag. No idea why. They are funny things :cool: We had a good session at home with teaching 2o2o with a nose touch to a target plate. If anyone has any ideas on how to get him focussing ahead I will be very happy! I have him reliably going to target plate and nose touch with 2o2o with click and reward on ground near the target plate, even if I am behind him. He still is looking for me a bit though when I click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 If anyone has any ideas on how to get him focussing ahead I will be very happy! I have him reliably going to target plate and nose touch with 2o2o with click and reward on ground near the target plate, even if I am behind him. He still is looking for me a bit though when I click. You've ended the behaviour? Why don't you want your dog to look at you then? I'm not sure how'd you'd stop that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) Not sure if this helps but I was watching a video on 2o/2o contacts and they said reward the dog from the opposite side to where you are standing. So they don't start automatically turning there head back to look for you. Is that what you were having problems with? I am not particularly clear at explaining it so my apology if its not clear. Or what about placing the reward out in front of the target and releasing the dog forward to the reward. Would be easier if you had a second person to remove the reward should your dog self release but it might still be workable. Else could you click and throw the reward forward so the dog drives ahead rather than looks back at you. Edited January 3, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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