Reducing Reliance On Food

[Luke W]

BTW, I never release my dogs at the end of a behaviour, only when I have finished working with them. I expect them to be watching me & waiting for another command whilst Im working with them. The reward is my release.

Do you use a release word?

Eg..

"Sit"

"Down"

"Stand"

Click

"Free"

Treat

?

How long do you go before you've "finished working with them" and they get released/rewarded?

[The Spotted Devil]

Interesting. I, too, always click and treat....but I tend to use the clicker for new behaviours. However, if I want to teach a sequence I substitute verbal praise to indicate that he's on the right track and to hang in there for the jackpot. This is where I'm at with extended heeling at the moment - as his level of understanding increases I will start to drop the verbal praise. At the moment he still needs some encouragement on the turns to maintain focus.

I only release when we've finished working but that is more because of the type of dog I have. With my ACD a release refreshed her and left her bouncing back to me for more. Zig just buggers off to p!ss on things

ETA: LukeW - the reward needs to be tied to the behaviour not to the release...otherwise you are rewarding the dog for jumping up and running around. Thus I treat and then release - for Zig, the release is like a jackpot and sometimes that's ALL I use. Today I took Zig to the park for a quick run before he came out to breakfast with us. Instead of just letting him run riot, I asked him to "sit" and "wait" whilst I ran 50m away. Asked him to find "heel". He bolted too me (overshot actually) then raced in to my left hand side, sat and looked me straight in the eye. I told him he was a "good boy!". Still focussed. "Good boy". Still focussed. "OK". 200m away sniffing

Edited January 2, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[Dogs rock]

I agree that the clicker or mark word should not indicate the release of the behaviour, but also think it should be pointed out that a treat does not always have to follow every single click. If you have truly classically conditioned the click (which is at least the original idea behind the clicker), then over time (after x number of repetitions) the click means food to the dog. That is, the dog 'feels' the same as if it got the food. If you think about Pavlov's dogs, they would salivate at the sound of the bell after it had been paired with their dinner. They reached a point where the presentation of the food was not required to elicit the exact same response to the bell from the dog. So JuleP's sequence of

sit

mark

stand

mark

drop

mark

release

is entirely plausible (for a dog that is new to the exercise or the pairing of the exercises - I would not use the markers for an experienced dog unless it was having trouble and/or was confused).

The trouble with treating before the release is that if you always treat and then release, what's to stop the dog anticipating the release (if you usually immediately follow the release with the food). I personally think that you can treat before OR after the release, but in order for it to be successful the dog must have a clear understanding that the release word is the end of the exercise, and regardless of what I do it must wait for that word before ending the behaviour. (For this reason, I only reward after the release for beginner dogs). The problem that I see is that if you do treat the dog before the release, why would they wait? Where is the value in the release word? (Unless of course you primarily follow your release word with a game or other reward, in which case there is value however if you did it all the time you would effectively be double-rewarding every behaviour.)

Luke W, in regards to your heeling, I'm just wondering whether you always follow the sequence

Heel

Sit

Release

Reward

The reason I ask is, if you always ask for the sit before releasing, the dog is getting rewarded for sitting, not heeling. Remember, dogs pair consequences (good or bad) with the last behaviour that they exhibited, so it may be that your dog doesn't see heeling as rewarding (but probably has a pretty good sit). If you don't already do it, I would try asking for a very short heel (one or two steps if that's all Barkly can manage) and releasing him while he is in a good heeling position. Don't worry about turns, but just focus on getting what we call a 'happy heel'. You can lure if you want, but I would be giving the treat AFTER the release, otherwise the dog will only concentrate on the food for the entire exercise, and is unlikely to think about any of the words that you say. You could even try luring with one treat, but when you release, reward him with a treat from the other hand, which can sometimes help to break down the dependence on the lure.

If the dependence is purely on food rewards (and not lures as suggested), then I would maybe go about teaching the intermittent schedule differently. I understood your post to mean that you are linking behaviours together and then rewarding at the end, and this is what the dog is struggling with. Can the dog do single behaviours, eg: sit, release on an intermittent schedule? If not, I would be working on this before trying to chain behaviours together. So maybe:

sit treat

sit treat

sit NO treat

sit treat (with releases after each sit of course)

When advising clients about switching from a continuous to intermittent reinforcement schedule, I usually suggest following every 'no treat' behaviour with a treat the next time. That way, the dog learns the pattern that "if I didn't get it this time, I know I'll get it next time". Then start bringing the 'no treat' occurences closer together (might be starting one in eight 'no treats', then down to one in two or three 'no treats' - keeping it random all of the time), before throwing in a double 'no treat' (followed by a treat on the third one). I would then do this double every now and then, amongst a number of single 'no treat' behaviours. You do need to progress through the stages fairly rapidly - as soon as the dog gets it I would move on so that the new pattern isn't too ingrained (and therefore harder to progress from).

Does that make sense? It's harder to explain in writing because I can't check that you're understanding as I go - if you're confused let me know and I'll see if I can clarify.

[MrsD]

BTW, I never release my dogs at the end of a behaviour, only when I have finished working with them. I expect them to be watching me & waiting for another command whilst Im working with them. The reward is my release.

Do you use a release word?

Eg..

"Sit"

"Down"

"Stand"

Click

"Free"

Treat

?

How long do you go before you've "finished working with them" and they get released/rewarded?

I click then reward. Only time I use a release word is when I have finished my session. Whilst I'm working with them, I don't want them wandering off to sniff or play etc. Besides which, my release word doesnt allow them to go running off, only to relax/lie down etc.

For example if I am working with them on going to a mat (this is assuming that I have taught the behaviour & they know the command &/or signal) I will do something like this -

(command) Mat

(when the dog touches the mat) Click - throw food away to the side

(after dog has picked up food & turns back to me - command) mat

(when dog is on mat) click - throw food to side

Similarly if I am teaching the dog to, say, sit in front (for those obedience ones amongst us) it would be

(command) come

(when the dog comes & sits in front) click - throw food away

I will usually lure the dog to start teaching the behaviour, then once the dog can physically do it with a lure I would go to a lure/lure/dry reinforcement. So I would (using a lovely smelly food ) lure the dog once, click, treat. Lure the dog again, click & treat. Immediately after I would lure the dog again (which in effect becomes the handsignal for the dog when it's learning) but without food in my hand, click & treat from the bait pouch. 99 times out of 100 the dog will do the behaviour because they've just done it twice & the smell of the food (this is where using the dogs favourite yummy smelly food helps ) on your hand. Repeat, food food, no food, after a while (the *while* depends on the dog, some quickly, some not so quickly ) you can start doing food/no food, then food/no food/no food etc. Build from there. ETA - ALWAYS end on the dog getting a reward, so it might go food/food/no food/food/food/no food/food for example, I realised my breaking the behaviour down into small sections of 3 repetitions looks like I always end with no food, but the opposite is true.

For heeling, I would first teach the dog to find the heel position -

dog standing in front, lure the dog into position with food (once again it becomes the handsignal for a flip finish), click when in heel position then treat. In this instance, I would either throw the food OR would feed in position (this would be my preference) & have ME step away, then repeat.

Then (after the dog can find heel position) I would teach the dog to take one step at heel by getting the dog into position, jackpot feed it & using a piece of food, lure it into one step (keeping it's head up looking at me) click & treat.

Do ONE step - over & over. Then do reward/reward/no reward. Exactly as above. Then move onto 2 steps. Then 3 etc.

I used to use a release word on all my dogs that I did obedience with, but with my new dogs I don't & I have had much more success, my dogs have much more focus, I will do a big fuss over them when I have finished a session (length of time depends, anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 mins now but when 1st starting it may have been as little as a minute) so they know they are free to look around, look for more pats (which is what they normally do ) etc, I teach them focus separately but in conjunction with other work during a session but that's a whole other subject .

IMO Barkly's barking is probably frustration, I think everyone is guilty of going to fast with their dogs (me included!) just remember you reap what you sow - if you let him get away with the barking & reward him for it, he will continue to bark. Give him a no reward marker, break off & start again but go back a step. So if you ask him to sit, stand & then drop & he barks after the stand, click after the stand before he gets a chance to bark then reward, then ask for a stand & a drop & click/reward & then ask for sit stand drop & click the instant he drops before he gets a chance to bark & reward.

For the purposes of this post I've said reward with food, but it works the same with whatever the reward eg toys. Just make sure you are using the highest value reward you can. Also I use both clicker & verbal marker, clicker being predominate because of the accuracy you can get with it, I always teach with the clicker, then use either clicker or verbal marker once the dog knows the exercise.

BTW, I know lots of people push to get rid of the clicker as quickly as you can, I still use my clicker during my training to smarten up moves, teach the dog duration etc, I think Levi can attest that it hasn't done Jarrah any harm .

Hope that hasn't confused you too much .

Edited January 2, 2009 by MrsD

[MrsD]

I agree that the clicker or mark word should not indicate the release of the behaviour, but also think it should be pointed out that a treat does not always have to follow every single click.

I do sometimes use the click twice/reward once scenario but only with Jarrah as he's my most experienced dog & normally only in the context of establishing a behaviour (in my case tricks, because I don't do obedience yet with him) that has more than one part. Because he knows that the click doesnt automatically end the behaviour he understands that the first click is telling him that what he has done so far is correct.

The problem that I see is that if you do treat the dog before the release, why would they wait? Where is the value in the release word? (Unless of course you primarily follow your release word with a game or other reward, in which case there is value however if you did it all the time you would effectively be double-rewarding every behaviour.)

This is what I do with my dogs, my release word is used as a reward at the end of the session more then anything. As I said in my post above, when I release my dogs, they usually just come looking to me for more work, more pats or a game .

When advising clients about switching from a continuous to intermittent reinforcement schedule, I usually suggest following every 'no treat' behaviour with a treat the next time.

I do this too & I always end a session with the dog doing something well for a treat.

ETA - something else I meant to mention wrt heeling, another way to teach it is to teach the dog to target something, either your hand (which is how you get that head up/dog prancing heeling) or an external target (someone before mentioned a bulldog clip, but I also know of someone with a little dog who put a patch on their pants on their lower leg) or using a target stick.

Edited January 2, 2009 by MrsD

[Dogs rock]

This is what I do with my dogs, my release word is used as a reward at the end of the session more then anything. As I said in my post above, when I release my dogs, they usually just come looking to me for more work, more pats or a game .

I agree with you that the dog should come looking for more work, pats or a game after their release word, whether they get a release for every single behaviour as mine do or at the end of the session like yours do. I think that as long as the dog has a good understanding that the release means you can finish THAT behaviour but doesn't mean to bugger off then you can use it as often as you like. I think the problem comes when the dog hasn't necessarily made a good connection with their release word (not that they dislike it, but rather they have learnt that it means that they can bugger off and do whatever they like). To me, the dog's release means that they are free to be a dog and have fun, pats, treats, sniff, play etc etc, but I ALWAYS expect my dogs to be attentive to me so that as soon as I give them another command, they are back working again.

To help with this I actually play the command release game, where we may run and jump around together, then I throw in a quick command, and the quicker they respond, the quicker they get released and we can go back to jumping around. I find the motivation of a lot of dogs to increase with this high energy training game, as the reward is high and they spend far more time running than they do working (best for static exercises - sit, stand and drop). This could also be a way of decreasing dependence on food as the game is so much fun that the dog finds it rewarding enough without the food (of course, not all dogs find this game fun, but most dogs that like to run with you are pretty good at it).

[Staff'n'Toller]

I guess we are all doing variations on a theme as far as bridge and release go.

For me:

Click ends the behaviour.

I use the clicker very early in luring/shaping (not free-shaping) then I fade it as soon as I have what I want.

I find the release defines a time period for the dog during static exercises, particularly stays- is it a crutch?? Yeah probably. However they are working well for my latest dog who thinks stays are a laugh and he can get up whenever he wants because I can't possibly mean business.

Luke I would suggest teaching tricks if you're bored over summer, I don't tend to recommend speak or crawl to competitive obedience dogs but there are other tricks that are quite harmless and whilst you are shaping there is less pressure on the dog to get it right every time or do it to perfection. If he is going to do agility there are a few targetting exercises you can be doing.

Luring sit from drop is quite easy to teach with a bridge if you haven't done it and helps the dog 'get' change of positions later.

ETA: I use the release as dogs rock does above ^^^ my dogs don't tend to nick off because they are still wanting to be with me and waiting for the next cue.

Mel.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[MrsD]

This is what I do with my dogs, my release word is used as a reward at the end of the session more then anything. As I said in my post above, when I release my dogs, they usually just come looking to me for more work, more pats or a game .

I agree with you that the dog should come looking for more work, pats or a game after their release word, whether they get a release for every single behaviour as mine do or at the end of the session like yours do. I think that as long as the dog has a good understanding that the release means you can finish THAT behaviour but doesn't mean to bugger off then you can use it as often as you like. I think the problem comes when the dog hasn't necessarily made a good connection with their release word (not that they dislike it, but rather they have learnt that it means that they can bugger off and do whatever they like). To me, the dog's release means that they are free to be a dog and have fun, pats, treats, sniff, play etc etc, but I ALWAYS expect my dogs to be attentive to me so that as soon as I give them another command, they are back working again.

I agree completely .

To help with this I actually play the command release game, where we may run and jump around together, then I throw in a quick command, and the quicker they respond, the quicker they get released and we can go back to jumping around. I find the motivation of a lot of dogs to increase with this high energy training game, as the reward is high and they spend far more time running than they do working (best for static exercises - sit, stand and drop). This could also be a way of decreasing dependence on food as the game is so much fun that the dog finds it rewarding enough without the food (of course, not all dogs find this game fun, but most dogs that like to run with you are pretty good at it).

This is basically how I work my dogs, I will get them out of a crate, the trailer, in from outside, go outside with them etc play a huge game with them, throw in a quick command & then more play, then back in the crate. It builds drive like you wouldnt believe & becomes part of our training, I don't need food or even toys for my dog to enjoy working with me, Im the greatest toy put on the face of this earth . I will work, reward with food, work reward with toy or play, then work, reward with food again, the dogs love it & are always ready to work.

The only difference with me is I don't use a word to "release" them although I do use verbal encouragements (ready, come on, get it, yesss, psssst etc). And they are ready to work the moment they come out of the crate .

My trainer who taught me all this is a god .

[Dogs rock]

I find the release defines a time period for the dog during static exercises, particularly stays- is it a crutch??

I don't think it is a crutch. Again, it depends on how you use it, but to me, a release word lets the dog know when an exercise is finished and they can once again do whatever (within reason, eg no chewing my shoes!) So my dogs learnt that "sit" means move into the sitting position and wait until I tell you to stop sitting (which is what their release word does). So the release word is just as important to the exercise as the command word. I think this makes it far easier for the dog to get it right, as the duration of sit is not ambiguous - they know exactly when they can stop doing it. I find even with the word stay there is still room for confusion - does stay mean 30 seconds or 30 minutes? With a release word, the stay command is not even necessary as "sit" means sit until I tell you to stop. Of course, it's all just my opinion - I accept that other methods work too, this is just my preference.

[Luke W]

I'm going to take Barkly for a walk - then come back and have a good read of all these new responses!!

By the way S'n'T - "Speak" was one of the first things I taught him...and the cue was "Bark"...not a smart idea for a dog called Barkly D'Oh.

Oh - and he'll be doing obed and agility He targets stick and hand.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Luke W

[JulesP]

If you have to treat after each click then you haven't conditioned your dog to the clicker/verbal marker correctly. As Dog Rock said you are training Classical Conditioning here. My dogs go nuts if I say yes to them.

You can put a string of things together and change how you mark. I wouldn't mark my dogs through a sit drop stand routine as they don't need it. Sounded like Barkly still does. This is a good exercise though to draw out the giving of a treat and get rid of the problem of the dog only working for the treat.

I have never used a clicker/mark as a release.

I use verbal encouragement as a bridge.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'm going to take Barkly for a walk - then come back and have a good read of all these new responses!!

By the way S'n'T - "Speak" was one of the first things I taught him...and the cue was "Bark"...not a smart idea for a dog called Barkly D'Oh.

Oh - and he'll be doing obed and agility He targets stick and hand.

Ahah!! That explains your demand/frustration barking. Yes my first two I taught to speak and barking becomes the default behaviour because it is so easy for them to elicit. My Stafford is notorious for it, will refuse my cue sit/drop/target and just woofs at me instead like that might get her the treat.

I will never as long as I have dogs, teach speak ever again, I don't care how many commercials I might miss out on it's not worth it. :p

Mel.

[kyliegirl]

I'm going to take Barkly for a walk - then come back and have a good read of all these new responses!!

By the way S'n'T - "Speak" was one of the first things I taught him...and the cue was "Bark"...not a smart idea for a dog called Barkly D'Oh.

Oh - and he'll be doing obed and agility He targets stick and hand.

Ahah!! That explains your demand/frustration barking. Yes my first two I taught to speak and barking becomes the default behaviour because it is so easy for them to elicit. My Stafford is notorious for it, will refuse my cue sit/drop/target and just woofs at me instead like that might get her the treat.

I will never as long as I have dogs, teach speak ever again, I don't care how many commercials I might miss out on it's not worth it. :p

Mel.

Really? Some people who train a dog to bark seem to beable to control their barking more because the dog realizes they only get a reward for barking when the command is spoken. You have a command like "woof" or "speak" or "say hello" which is the cue for them to bark.

As for click is not release, I guess it depends how people use it. I know over time the dog realizes if they don't release when you click they can get a reinforced reward for staying in position.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'm going to take Barkly for a walk - then come back and have a good read of all these new responses!!

By the way S'n'T - "Speak" was one of the first things I taught him...and the cue was "Bark"...not a smart idea for a dog called Barkly D'Oh.

Oh - and he'll be doing obed and agility He targets stick and hand.

Ahah!! That explains your demand/frustration barking. Yes my first two I taught to speak and barking becomes the default behaviour because it is so easy for them to elicit. My Stafford is notorious for it, will refuse my cue sit/drop/target and just woofs at me instead like that might get her the treat.

I will never as long as I have dogs, teach speak ever again, I don't care how many commercials I might miss out on it's not worth it. :p

Mel.

Really? Some people who train a dog to bark seem to beable to control their barking more because the dog realizes they only get a reward for barking when the command is spoken. You have a command like "woof" or "speak" or "say hello" which is the cue for them to bark.

As for click is not release, I guess it depends how people use it. I know over time the dog realizes if they don't release when you click they can get a reinforced reward for staying in position.

The speaking is on cue, and I can tell her to be quiet but it is intrinsically rewarding as most Staffies are talkers anyway so whilst I have not asked her to speak in a long time, it is not something that will extinguish.

I do use a primary reinforcer when teaching and proofing duration of behaviour however I have used a clear release word for a long time and it works for me and the dogs. It depends what your focus is, mine is retriever training and agility right now so I want the static positions ROCK solid and in the case of my dog waiting to be sent out for a retrieve, well being released to get the mark is much more rewarding than any food I have to offer.

Likewise if I ever enter the obed trial ring I want it crystal clear to my dogs that they wait for my say so to finish.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Luke W]

ETA: LukeW - the reward needs to be tied to the behaviour not to the release...otherwise you are rewarding the dog for jumping up and running around.

I'm under the impression that as long as the 'click' occurs before the release, it doesn't matter so much when the reward is given...

From http://www.clickertraining.com/node/642

CT = CLicker Training

TWC = Training with Clicker

Is the treat delivered "in position"?

CT: The emphasis is on delivering the treat as soon as possible after the click (though never simultaneous with the click). The treat is delivered regardless of the animal's position subsequent to the click. The trainer knows that the animal's position at the instant of treat delivery is reinforced, and so, when planning a training session, considers various ways to provide the reinforcement.

TWC: The emphasis is on delivering the treat while the dog is still in the correct position. Treats may be withheld if the dog moves out of position when hearing the click (e.g., the dog forges ahead of heel position or gets up from a sit).

The way I do it, (working with a clicker and release commands)...

"Sit"

Dog Sits.

Click

Reward

If dog continues to sit...

Click

Treat

If dog continues to sit...

Click

Treat

If dog continues to sit...

Click

Treat

If dog continues to sit...

Click

Treat

Release word

This trains the dog to remain sitting until the release word is given.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Luke W

[Levi]

Hi Mrs D. As you described is exactly how we do it and Maree has spent a fair bit of time working with us (as have others). We are currently working with the box to help Bindi understand the heel position better (it isn't working all that well either).

She has dodged heel position since she was a puppy and has always moved out wide or turned side on. As you said, part of the issue is that I am tall and Bindi is tiny and I think she moves out to be able to look at me.

In all fairness, I have spent much time focusing on tricks and things that she loves to learn and have avoided spending too much time working on heel position as I have found it too hard and frustrating :p . If I get slightly frustrated (I just have to groan or use a stern voice), Bindi just backs off and we have to stop or change to something more fun like tricks.

Note to Self: "I must dig out the box and work on the heel position without getting frustrated - training is fun."

I must say I am a bit confused by those of you who say that food does not follow every click. I will work Bindi through the clicker but she will still get food after a few seconds. I was told that a click always pays.

Jules P - I have been working on heeling with food for more than 12 months now and am so generous with food that Bindi was eating more than double her daily food allowance in one training session . It seems to me that I have kept the food in too long and too frequently.

I don't want to do competition obedience but we are working on a dance routine so I do need a reliable heel position particularly when moving sideways and backward. I need to find a way to help her stick to my leg like glue ( is glue allowed?).

Edited January 2, 2009 by Levi

[Luke W]

Who's this Maree trainer god you speak of and does she come down to Melbourne

[kelpiechick]

I must say I am a bit confused by those of you who say that food does not follow every click. I will work Bindi through the clicker but she will still get food after a few seconds. I was told that a click always pays.

If you are using your clicker according to the 'doyens' of clicker training eg: Bob Bailey, Moe Strenfel ,Karen Pryor, and I'd probably add Susan Garrett to that list - then you are correct, the click should always pay otherwise the clicker will eventually lessen in value when teaching new behaviours.

For me, I use the clicker when training new behaviours, then once the behaviour is getting pretty reliable (80% accuracy according to Bailey) then I change to a verbal bridge- 'yes'. Once I am using the verbal bridge, then I don't always 'pay' every time I mark.

I understand the classical conditioning argument, does make sense, but I find that if the association is made that the clicker always pays, it does make it easier when it comes out again for a new behaviour. Plus I have a huge respect for Susan Garrett as a trainer and if she says reward after every click then I am going to reward after every click! LOL.

If the click ended the behaviour, it would be very difficult to teach some agility behaviours- teaching a 2o2o contact is one thing that comes to mind. When first teaching this, I want the opportunity to multiple reward ('machine gunning' without the jackpot if you like) and this way I can keep my dog on the end of the dogwalk and keep asking for a nose touch and reward every single one - love watching dogs trained to do this, almost looks like they are chicken pecking. If the click ended the behaviour, then it would also be marking my release from the contact which I don't want, and I would have to go through the motion of putting them back on there every single time just to backchain the end behaviour.

Another agility obstacle that comes to mind are the weaves - sometimes when working on entries I can click to mark correct entry with the dog still completing the weaves rather than jumping out as the click has not ended the behaviour.

Agree with all the posters who stressed the importance of the release cue - I believe this is something that we often take for granted without really teaching it to our dogs - and often they don't truly understand it. Once you start doing agility, your release cue can have multiple meanings (compared to obedience) and this really makes you think about what you are doing to keep consistency. It's also one of the things that we spend a lot of time teaching in foundation class away from equipment.

Also agree with Mrs D about bringing the clicker out every now and then to sharpen already learned behaviours.

Mine see it appear when it hasn't been out for a while and are instantly switched into excitment mode.

Sorry Luke - seem to be going OT a bit.

[Luke W]

Sorry Luke - seem to be going OT a bit.

No problem - natter away

I really like to hear other peoples methods and thoughts on training mechanisms.

For what it's worth, I've also got a verbal marker. "Boop". I treat it exactly the same as a click and treat after every "boop".

For already learnt behaviors (sit, down etc)...I'll do a sequence of commands, sometimes saying "good boy" between each one (similarly for encouragement during a long stay command), then mark (either click or 'boop'), then release ("free"), then treat. Note: I'm a bit slack with my release and really think I need to make sure I use it ALL the time.

I also have a 'we're finished' command as well..."Off ya go, all done"...

What should I watch tonight?

Bob Bailey, Ted Turner or Ivan Balabanov?

Or Stargate SG-1 ?

Edited January 2, 2009 by Luke W

[Dogs rock]

If you are using your clicker according to the 'doyens' of clicker training eg: Bob Bailey, Moe Strenfel ,Karen Pryor, and I'd probably add Susan Garrett to that list - then you are correct, the click should always pay otherwise the clicker will eventually lessen in value when teaching new behaviours.

Although I realise this is OT, I would have to disagree here. I was not suggesting that, once conditioned, a treat should never again follow the click, merely that it doesn't need to follow every single time. Of course, if the treat failed to follow the click for an extended period the dog's association between the click and the treat would break down to the point of extinction. In fact, by having the conditioned click on an intermittent schedule it is actually more resistant to extinction. I know that when training my own dogs I can not use their 'yes' for weeks at a time, but the first time I say it to mark a behaviour they almost twitch in recognitition (not in a bad way, I just mean that their body language clearly indicates that they know they have done something right).

I respect where you are coming from as you mentioned some very very respectable trainers, however are you positive that they say every single click must be followed by a treat forever? I remember a few years ago being questioned on this point, and a very good trainer friend and I looked in one of Karen Pryor's book (can't remember which one and it wasn't my book so I can't check) and confirmed that she too says that you don't need to treat every single click. I wish I had the book so that I could find the section.... sorry about that.