Taking The Easy Way Out

[WoofnHoof]

This is negative because the point of achieving the desired outline is that it comes from the understanding of the horse and the way it carries itself, many people think that head down = submission but if it is forced with the use of a gadget or incorrect use of the bit it results in a tense horse and no true submission.

I've never thought of the horse coming up under the saddle and accepting the bit as "submission". Have to think on that one some more.

It's commonly used in dressage as the opposite of resistance, submission is used in conjunction with acceptance of the aids, bridle etc. True submission is considered as being when the aids are accepted willingly and without resistance.

[Erny]

It's commonly used in dressage as the opposite of resistance, submission is used in conjunction with acceptance of the aids, bridle etc. True submission is considered as being when the aids are accepted willingly and without resistance.

I know what you're talking about - for years I've ridden in dressage, eventing etc. I've always thought of it in terms of "yielding" and "acceptance". When it comes to horses though I just never thought of it in terms of "submission". Not saying you're wrong and it's just a matter of semantics and perception I guess :rolleyes:.

[WoofnHoof]

It's commonly used in dressage as the opposite of resistance, submission is used in conjunction with acceptance of the aids, bridle etc. True submission is considered as being when the aids are accepted willingly and without resistance.

I know what you're talking about - for years I've ridden in dressage, eventing etc. I've always thought of it in terms of "yielding" and "acceptance". When it comes to horses though I just never thought of it in terms of "submission". Not saying you're wrong and it's just a matter of semantics and perception I guess :rolleyes:.

Lol it's this part of the collective marks I often have to pay attention to when reading my test sheets as I often get 'resisting' comments so I'm probably more used to using the term:

Submission (attention and confidence; harmony, lightness and ease of the movements; acceptance of the bridle);

That's from one of the novice tests, it looks like the FEI tests include "lightness of the forehand" as well.

[Lablover]

I see people talk about taking the easy way out with many different things relation to dog training. Using food or a toy has been described to me as the easy way out as has giving a correction. It always seems to have a negative connotation and i am not sure why?

If a problem can be resolved or start to progress quickly- why is that a bad thing. Why should we select methods for dog X that require months of 'hard yards' if there is a better alternative?

The main problem, IMHO, is depending on the bred and the pedigree, is having predominatly show lines.

How many times have we heard, my dogs spin, or run a course around the yard.

[OSoSwift]

I think that you cannot label one particular way of training something 'the easy wasy out' Each dog is different. If what you are using is working, but gets a result twice as quickly as another method doesn't make it the easy way out to me it makes it the smart way.

In the horse world using gadgets is the seen to be easy way out. I guess if that was true then using a clicker could be seen as the easy way out as it is to a gadget? I guess also if this is the case any piece of equipment could be classed as that. I think some people hang onto the idea the dog should just want to work for me and if someone uses a high value reward - food, prey drive, toy etc is is seen as that. I myself don't agree. I think it is a case of don't necessarily work harder, work smarter.

[WoofnHoof]

I think that you cannot label one particular way of training something 'the easy wasy out' Each dog is different. If what you are using is working, but gets a result twice as quickly as another method doesn't make it the easy way out to me it makes it the smart way.

In the horse world using gadgets is the seen to be easy way out. I guess if that was true then using a clicker could be seen as the easy way out as it is to a gadget? I guess also if this is the case any piece of equipment could be classed as that. I think some people hang onto the idea the dog should just want to work for me and if someone uses a high value reward - food, prey drive, toy etc is is seen as that. I myself don't agree. I think it is a case of don't necessarily work harder, work smarter.

No a clicker isn't a gadget in the horse world, obviously the word 'gadget' as it's used in the horse world is different to it's general use, in the horse world a gadget is a piece of equipment which forcibly holds an animal in a certain position, which have the potential to be harmful because of the way it's used, these are devices which make it uncomfortable and even painful to the horse to put it's head any other way. There is plenty of controversy in the horse world on the use of gadgets as many believe they can be fine in the right hands and the right circumstances, although the general concensus is that 'less is best'. Anyway, a clicker would not be referred to as a gadget because it's use in the wrong hands is unlikely to cause the animal serious damage.

Edited to add link to horsey gadgets if anyone's interested :D

Edited January 1, 2009 by tkay

[OSoSwift]

Yep okay Tkay, I totally agree there, I was just saying that it could be seen as a gadget or gimic, but draw reins and curb bits can cause extreme anxiety and discomfort, a clicker might elicit a bemused look but that is it if the dog doesn't have any association.

I still think that just because it is quicker or uses food, toy or prey drive it is not the easy way out.

[corvus]

A clicker isn't really a gadget because you could do the exact same thing using your voice as well. Marker training and clicker training are the exact same thing. One just makes a noise that is the same every time.

I think the fastest way is not necessarily the best way either, though. Sometimes it's smarter, sometimes it disregards the way an individual might tend to behave. Say you had a dog like my Lappie boy Kivi who likes touching and physical guidance. I could go either way with that. Maybe I would whack a check chain on him and use that to teach him to heel the old fashioned way, or maybe I could put a harness on him and guide him gently with my hands. This is all hypothetical as I did neither in the end, but suppose he is also a soft dog. He might learn very fast that he should walk at heel to avoid a check, but if he's working to avoid something then he might not be that relaxed when he's around me. So maybe I gently guide him with my hands and he learns a bit slower because there are no bad consequences, but in the end he is more relaxed around me because I didn't do anything unpleasant. :D It's all very dependent on what method you're using and what your dog is like.

[The Spotted Devil]

Personally I would consider an "easy way out" as sacrificing long term success for short term goals. It might take my dog longer to perform a particular exercise using my training method of choice (note, I am not specific about the training tool!) but, in the long term, he will have a more complete comprehension of the exercise and, if he performs it to only 95% of my expectation and is not rewarded, will understand what is required to gain the reward.

Goodness knows if that makes sense in your head as well as it does in mine :D

[Cosmolo]

It does TSD. I don't always think that the easy way has to be negative though. Soetimes training can be quick and produce rapid learning with no negative fallout for the dog.

Would anyone like to comment on the relationship (if any) between a longer time frame and stress/ loading for dogs? I am not talking about all cases of course but i do think sometimes by virtue of the fact that method XYZ takes longer, that this creates more stress for the dog than if ABC method was used and the dog learned quickly.

Another question- Is a slightly higher level of stress (lets say 5 on a scale of 1-10) for a much shorter period of time better or worse than a lower level of stress (lets say 3) for a longer period of time?

[The Spotted Devil]

Unfortunately, stress is just not that simple! I wish!!! Stress is about behaviour and physiology and the immune response and there are different ends of the spectrum for different individuals - acute stress and chronic stress are very difficult to compare although long-term chronic stress probably has more deleterious effects on the immune system/reproductive system etc. However, it's more about whether the animal can predict the response and control its environment that tends to lead to a chronic stress response. So, if the training is consistent and predictable I can't see it being a problem. In my opinion. Hell, even scientists can't agree on how to measure stress!!!

[corvus]

Why should training be stressful at all? It took me quite some time to teach Kivi what "this side" means through classical conditioning alone, but I don't think there was very much stress at all. It's very passive, is classical conditioning. However, if I want something to stick and be reliable I use operant conditioning. It's usually quicker and more effective, but I like classical conditioning because you can do it so passively and you end up with a dog that practically speaks english. If he does what you suggest it's fun. If he doesn't, no biggy, guess he didn't feel like it.

A lot of people say their dogs love training. Kivi loves clicker training, but I do think it's stressful for him. He'll still run over and try to be spontaneous when he sees I have a clicker, though. I try to give him guidance, which clicker trainers usually don't like doing, but I think it helps keep it less frustrating for him while he's still learning.

[Cosmolo]

Sorry corvus- i believe there is stress in any learning. Stress is not always obvious and not necesarily as negative as people may think but if there was no stress at all- why would the dog learn or change? Interesting to hear other views

[WoofnHoof]

Now that really is a can of worms Cosmo! How much stress is too much? How much stress does one method produce over another and does it make a long term difference? Who really knows - other than the dog? Personally I think that attempting to continue to teach recall in my sibe who is clearly not bred for it would cause him unnecessary stress because his brain simply isn't oriented for something like recall, yet I would happily teach him sledding because he is genetically tuned into that kind of activity. That's my personal take on it I know that there are plenty who attempt to teach recall in sibes but unless it was a particularly biddable sibe I would question the value of training something which was totally against it's core nature. (Flame suit on lol)

[Just Midol]

When I win lotto I'll pay for a study to be done on various punishments and training styles to determine stress.

Now I just need to pick those lucky numbers.

[Kavik]

Very interesting responses.

TSD

I understand what you mean Like looking at shaping vs luring at times. Shaping can take longer (and be very frustrating! ) but once they get it, I think they understand what is wanted more than if lured.

corvus

About touching and physical guidance, very interesting. I have one dog who likes touching/guiding and two who do not. Not meaning corrections via a collar, but more about placing them in position and liking pats etc as a reward. Diesel can be manually placed/guided in a position if I want (sit/drop/stand etc) but I get more resistance and stress if I try that with the Kelpies. Diesel loves a pat/scratch/rub as a reward, the Kelpies would rather food or toy. They like a pat but as a pat not a reward in training (does that make sense? ) If I try to give them a pat while training, they will look at me like, OK now where is my reward or are we still working!

I believe there is always stress in training, stress is not always a bad thing.

[corvus]

Mmm, I know dogs that really don't want to be touched when they're trying to work, too. They give you the "Oi, what are you doing? I'm trying to work here!" look. Kivi is a hopeless snug. He's not real big on being placed so much, but he likes clues in the form of touching. Like touching his foot to get him to do something with it. I wouldn't show him exactly what I want the foot to do, but I can hint that I want him to try doing something with his foot by touching it. He gets very impatient and easily frustrated trying to figure something out for himself, but when he does it sticks like glue and becomes very reliable. So I try to balance out the frustration a bit by giving hints. It's still stressful, but he still likes it, too.

As for possible training that doesn't involve stress... I used the example of "this side". I taught that to Kivi by saying "this side" every time he went around an object on my side of it. I did use a little bit of encouragement in the form of clicking or something like that to attract him to my side of the object every now and then and I did sometimes give a very gentle pull on the leash to encourage it as well. I also sometimes stopped if he didn't pay attention and went the wrong side and got his leash tangled in the obstacle. I think the extra things I did like that would have created a small amount of stress, but if I'd done it soley by saying "this side" every time he passed an object on my side, I would have achieved the same thing eventually and I don't think there would have been any stress. Where's the stress in associating a word with an action? It's just putting a name to something. When Penny was young I taught her to shake the water from her coat when I said "shake". I couldn't make her do it and there was no pressure on her to learn what it meant. If she did it, I said "good girl". If she didn't, I'd suggest she have a roll instead, seeing as she normally does one or the other, and then I'd say good girl. So she also kinda knows what "have a roll" means. Sometimes she'd do neither and go for a run instead. I didn't put that one on cue, but she didn't seem to be looking for a "good girl". Perhaps she wouldn't do it on suggestion if I hadn't said good girl when she did, but that's another conditioned response. She's used to hearing "good girl" associated with rewards so the words become a vague reward in themselves. I say it so many times a day it's just come to mean I approve of whatever she's doing. She doesn't need my approval to be stress free.

[Quickasyoucan]

Several of people here are posting about how they have trained their dogs from pups using the "longer route" and avoiding what is perceived to be the "easy way".

However, what about looking at it from the point of view of an owner who already has a dog with entrenched bad habits? What if you acquire a dog at say age 2 who is already an experienced leash puller for example.

Surely what would be best for the dog and the owner is the method that will work the best and the quickest to resolve that issue? It is stressful for the owner and potentially harmful for the dog to be practically choking itself on every walk, why would you want to prolong that, if there are methods available that can give you the self-confidence and the power to fix that problem as quickly and efficiently as possible.

If this method involves correction, so be it, for me as a dog owner, I would want to find a balance between resolving the issue as quickly as possible, obviously without unduly stressing the dog, but taking into account the frustrating and potential stress on both owner and dog that could be caused by the problem persisting.

I don't think the easiest route has to be the laziest, it is sad that it should be perceived as such. My dog used to pull on the lead and did so from the moment I got him at around 10 months, I admit to moments of total frustration and anger, and our walking relationship was not really a happy one. Now with judicious use of both correction and praise walks are a pleasure for BOTH of us and our bond is stronger. It's sad that anyone would say I have taken the easy way out and imply that I couldn't really love my dog if I have "punished it".

PS I drive a car without power steering, I could say that all you people who have power steering can't really feel the car or the turns, so you are taking the "easy way out". No doubt I would be laughed at.

[The Spotted Devil]

Quickasyoucan - you raise a very good point and it is certainly something I'm aware of (hence why I prefaced my post with "Personally"). I particularly wanted a puppy of my choosing that I could shape and guide, taking all of the blame along the way and, hopefully, some of the credit With the older dogs full of bad habits (had one of those as well), I don't have a problem with resolving that behaviour as soon as possible for the comfort of both dog and owner....ultimately (and again, this is for my personal situation) I want a dog that learns how to learn, to think laterally for want of a better term - something a dog full of bad habits generally doesn't have and needs to be taught along side the appropriate behaviour.

And, for the best effect, any negative reinforcement/punishment needs to be followed up immediately with positive reinforcement. Correct the dog by all means but I see a lot of people who completely forget to REWARD the dog when it behaves as required - I see it in the show ring, obedience, agility and the average person walking their dog on the street or at the dog park. A simple "good dog!" and loosening of the lead would suffice!!!! I think we often underestimate how difficult some exercises are for a dog to carry out and overestimate how good we are at communicating what we want the dogs to do!

Edited January 2, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

That's for sure! Have you ever tried to clicker train a person for practice It is not easy to figure out what is wanted! I recently got a good dose of this when I got new weaves - I thought Kaos was doing well but it turned out he didn't understand what I wanted nearly as well as I thought he did. Same with his contacts - fine if I am beside or ahead, but he wouldn't hold them when I was behind him. So in both cases I had to change some of my methods. Felt like doing this though