Neutralisation Vs Socialisation

[spanky]

I'm not going to wade into this converstation, as I don't have enough experience and as K9 Force knows... I haven't neutralised my dogs (didn't have either from pups) and I'm yet to start Callista's training in drive program... but...

Having spent a full weekend at one of the workshops run by K9 Force, I can tell you that sitting at a computer and reading about his methods and reasons for them do not do him justice. I had not heard of neutralisation prior to the workshop and I will raise my next pup by K9 Force's program. Maybe some will say he brainwashed me (Midol some back-up please that this didn't happen), but honestly when you hear his reasons for developing his methods... well they make plain simple sense.

My next dog will be happy (tolerate) for someone to approach and pat them, but will not seek those pats out. They will be able to play with my nieces, nephews and my own children without going into hyper mode (ie. hit peak drive) and they will listen to me when called and given a command.

Maybe I could achieve this with obedience training and socialisation (percieved traditional methods), but why spend time exposing my dog to bad behaviours and then train out the undesirable stuff, when I can spend my time following a neutralisation method that achieves the same outcomes in a shorter timeframe and gives me a dog that should be more focused, happy and well-adjusted (the should being based on me being committed to the program)???

All I really wanted to say is that if you see past the accepted methods of training and move beyond the 'I don't want a robot for a dog' mentality... you will see the benefit of what K9 Force is saying. People think I'm weird for taking my dog to acupuncture for a back injury, but this kind of treatment is becoming more widely accepted for dogs... we may see the day that the same is said for neutralisation.

[Sardog]

I'm not going to wade into this converstation, as I don't have enough experience and as K9 Force knows... I haven't neutralised my dogs (didn't have either from pups) and I'm yet to start Callista's training in drive program... but...

Having spent a full weekend at one of the workshops run by K9 Force, I can tell you that sitting at a computer and reading about his methods and reasons for them do not do him justice. I had not heard of neutralisation prior to the workshop and I will raise my next pup by K9 Force's program. Maybe some will say he brainwashed me (Midol some back-up please that this didn't happen), but honestly when you hear his reasons for developing his methods... well they make plain simple sense.

My next dog will be happy (tolerate) for someone to approach and pat them, but will not seek those pats out. They will be able to play with my nieces, nephews and my own children without going into hyper mode (ie. hit peak drive) and they will listen to me when called and given a command.

Maybe I could achieve this with obedience training and socialisation (percieved traditional methods), but why spend time exposing my dog to bad behaviours and then train out the undesirable stuff, when I can spend my time following a neutralisation method that achieves the same outcomes in a shorter timeframe and gives me a dog that should be more focused, happy and well-adjusted (the should being based on me being committed to the program)???

All I really wanted to say is that if you see past the accepted methods of training and move beyond the 'I don't want a robot for a dog' mentality... you will see the benefit of what K9 Force is saying. People think I'm weird for taking my dog to acupuncture for a back injury, but this kind of treatment is becoming more widely accepted for dogs... we may see the day that the same is said for neutralisation.

Sparky, your analysis is spot on. A lot of the rebuttals by posters in this thread are looking at neutralisation in HUMAN terms and not in the dog's mind.

[corvus]

C: How can you say that if a dog is allowed to discover for themselves what they find rewarding that the things they come back for more than anything else is not at least somewhere a result of genetics?

K9: Because take the dogs out of the same environment & they behave completely different. I have had a few people bring me dogs that they have raised from a day old (various reasons). These are very different animals that often dont respond to the same things other dogs do.

I've been thinking about this... How do you know it's not taking them out of the environment in the first place that alters the way they behave? My mother has a kitten that was orphaned and hand-raised. When she first came home she was freakishly attached to humans. It gave me the willies. No cat I've ever known has wanted to sit on someone's chest so they could suck on that person's nose! It struck me as unnatural. How do we know that it was the fact that cats aren't born with more reserve towards humans that dictated her behaviour or the enironment in which she was brought up?

Now if you take humans out of the equation completely, and you scored behaviour across a large sample size, but controlled for basic needs that might affect behaviour such as food, water, shelter... then you might be able to say with more confidence what is inborn. In fact, the fox study does this pretty well, and also controls for social interactions. Other foxes are present but have very limited ability to influence the behaviour of other foxes. It's hard to get much better than that in behaviour.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: So then, is it as simple as neutral exposure and offering an acceptable way to achieve drive satisfaction that comes from you (such as tug for example)?

K9: Sort of, its as simple as training the dog in drive to recall before the dog learns how to gain prey drive success on its own.

C: Okay, so in my case the whole property smells like rabbit all the time, so my guess is the smell is unlikely to become a trigger, but the sight may continue to be a trigger.

K9: yes or specific times of the day, or common areas the triggers have been before.

C: If you are in the process of exposing your dog to rabbits with the aim of neutralising them, when would you do something with the raw drive?

K9: I start to work with the raw drive the moment I get the pup 7.5 weeks.

C: My vague plan was to do some training in the hare's enclosure. If I trained with drive satisfaction as a reward in the presence of the hare, would I be heading the way of happy positive socialisation instead of neutralisation?

K9: sounds like a plan.

C: And I think you probably would agree that my dog with his circling and leaning and whining is not dominant if you saw him. This is because he is a spineless wuss. He approaches every dog and person pretty much the same way, only with more whining and circling if he knows them.

K9: Even the weakest nerved dogs can show dominance in the right (or wrong) circumstances.

C: How he would be treated by an alpha wolf (i.e. his parent if he were a wolf, seeing as wolf packs are really just a family unit) when he approached that way would depend on how that wolf was feeling at that moment, wouldn't it? If all he was doing was circling and whining, I would be surprised if he copped it.

K9: It would depend on whether the Alpha & whether they considered it dominance or not actually.

C: Not even Penny gives it to him if he does it to her, and she's a cranky, old, arthritic lady. On the other hand, some dogs don't like being leaned on and licked and tell him to get lost.

K9: I rest my case.

C: What happens to a dog that is neutralised to everything and focused on one handler if the dog has to do something without the handler? Like a vet visit for example. Would the dog find such a situation very stressful?

K9: No reason to. Neutralisation does not make a non nervous dog into a nervous one.

C: What about if the handler goes on holidays and has to leave the dog in someone else's care?

K9: No problems, my own dogs stay at kennels without issue. They don't dislike people, but just when I am around no one else exists.

C: What would happen to the dog if the handler died or had to rehome the dog for some unforseen reason? Could neutralisation create a dependence on one handler?

K9: Independence isn't created through a reward structure but rather a pattern of being left alone at times.

[Steve K9Pro]

I'm not going to wade into this converstation, as I don't have enough experience and as K9 Force knows... I haven't neutralised my dogs (didn't have either from pups) and I'm yet to start Callista's training in drive program... but...

Having spent a full weekend at one of the workshops run by K9 Force, I can tell you that sitting at a computer and reading about his methods and reasons for them do not do him justice. I had not heard of neutralisation prior to the workshop and I will raise my next pup by K9 Force's program. Maybe some will say he brainwashed me (Midol some back-up please that this didn't happen), but honestly when you hear his reasons for developing his methods... well they make plain simple sense.

My next dog will be happy (tolerate) for someone to approach and pat them, but will not seek those pats out. They will be able to play with my nieces, nephews and my own children without going into hyper mode (ie. hit peak drive) and they will listen to me when called and given a command.

Maybe I could achieve this with obedience training and socialisation (percieved traditional methods), but why spend time exposing my dog to bad behaviours and then train out the undesirable stuff, when I can spend my time following a neutralisation method that achieves the same outcomes in a shorter timeframe and gives me a dog that should be more focused, happy and well-adjusted (the should being based on me being committed to the program)???

All I really wanted to say is that if you see past the accepted methods of training and move beyond the 'I don't want a robot for a dog' mentality... you will see the benefit of what K9 Force is saying. People think I'm weird for taking my dog to acupuncture for a back injury, but this kind of treatment is becoming more widely accepted for dogs... we may see the day that the same is said for neutralisation.

K9: Many thanks for the kind words...

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I've been thinking about this... How do you know it's not taking them out of the environment in the first place that alters the way they behave? My mother has a kitten that was orphaned and hand-raised. When she first came home she was freakishly attached to humans. It gave me the willies. No cat I've ever known has wanted to sit on someone's chest so they could suck on that person's nose! It struck me as unnatural. How do we know that it was the fact that cats aren't born with more reserve towards humans that dictated her behaviour or the enironment in which she was brought up?

K9: This is freakish behaviour, not common. Anything I say about this cat would be but speculation as we don't know the history & or the genetics of the kitten & I just don't have the time to speculate here.

I have contributed much time to this thread, answered all your questions about how dog temperaments work & this comes from a dog behaviour specialist, & just more questions with examples of parallels come up, & always will.

There are many cross overs between all mammals but they do also vary greatly. Its my belief that hares, kittens & dogs all have similarities but are also not the same in either behaviour or genetics.

The very best thing one can do is stick with what works for them, if they want something that works better then I have some super programs that work very well, all which I discuss at lessons, consults, workshops etc.

I just don't have the time to fully explain each & every step right here so that everyone will be completely educated on the subject, one reason is that every dog is in someway different & it would take a full over all explanation, then many small adjustments for each persons individual dog.

[corvus]

Thanks for your time K9. I still like dogs that blow me off a lot and a dog that is focused on me alone whenever I'm there would annoy the hell out of me, but drive training and neutralisation to prey animals is one thing I'd like to try.

[Just Midol]

Having spent a full weekend at one of the workshops run by K9 Force, I can tell you that sitting at a computer and reading about his methods and reasons for them do not do him justice. I had not heard of neutralisation prior to the workshop and I will raise my next pup by K9 Force's program. Maybe some will say he brainwashed me (Midol some back-up please that this didn't happen), but honestly when you hear his reasons for developing his methods... well they make plain simple sense.

Lmao, you're not brain washed

I've researched his methods in my own time, for two reasons (though one reason no longer applies.) Initially, I wanted to make sure it wasn't hurting my dog, now I don't bother with this reason as I know his methods won't hurt them and the second is to understand them and try and learn about other methods, but really, in drive, neutralization and the e-collar I prefer his methods over the others I have found. The only thing I had trouble with was getting used to looking at it from the dogs view, rather than a human view.

Corvus, based on that last post get a Husky and socialise the crap out of it Your dreams will come true

Edited January 12, 2009 by Just Midol

[corvus]

Corvus, based on that last post get a Husky and socialise the crap out of it Your dreams will come true

Haha, I'm not that crazy. I've got my eye on a Basenji. A cat in a dog's body. A SMALL dog's body.