Neutralisation Vs Socialisation

[Cosmolo]

Rather than continuing to go OT in another thread here it is-

Do you neutralise and why? How do you neutralise and what do you choose to neutralise to?

Do you socialise and why?

From my experience police dogs once they commence training are not socialised with strange people and dogs at all- i also don't believe that they are actively neutralised to them either. Assistance and Seeing eye dogs in my experience are socialised but then training must over ride the positive value they may have formed with others while they work. Dogs that are unable to work reliably don't usually make it out of the program and are pet homed.

Customs, quarantine and other 'sniffer' dogs are usually kennelled to my knowledge- not in order to neutralise but to make their work the absolute highlight of their day. I don't believe a dog needs to be neutralised to do this. When my OH worked scent detection dogs, they were all well socialised dogs but did not waste energy playing with other dogs or people. They certainly did have a positive value for dogs and people though.

[Jessca]

i neutralise to loud noises and unusual places, surfaces ect, by gently exposing them to it, but not over exposing. i do this because you dont want a dog who is scared of a certain surface or noise when they are older.

i socialise to funny looking people (which can be classed as neutralising), and all other people/strangers, i socialise to dogs or all sizes, breeds ect. but unfortunately i did this too much with my boy, as he now sees all dogs as friends. with me next dog he will not be so socialised to other dogs, so that i am his world, not playing with other dogs.

whereas our Mastiff was not socialised or neutralised to anything when we got her, so we struggled to take her any where, and couldnt have anyone over for a long time. till she started coming out of her shell and gaining confidence. she has only in the last 12 months been able to walk over our lino in the kitchen. which is great as when we got her, she would not walk on any other surface but dirt, as that is all she had ever been on.

[Kelpie-i]

Spot on Cosmolo!

And can I also point out for the record that I did not say that service dogs (whether it be pollice, customs or otherwise) were neutralised, I was merely stating the point of how they are housed and generally kept.

Customs, quarantine and other 'sniffer' dogs are usually kennelled to my knowledge- not in order to neutralise but to make their work the absolute highlight of their day.

On many occassions customs and quarantine dogs are crated for as long as 5 to 6 hours before they are let out to work for approx 1 hour then back in again until the next flight arrivals. Once their handler's shift is over, they are driven to the kennels and kennelled until the next day.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

Don't you think 'service' dogs are neutralised? I mean, by the mere fact they are around humans etc. etc. but with no interaction from which to attain a 'value' ..... there's a degree of neutralisation in that, don't you think? Just that it is done as a matter of course, not especially strived for - they don't need to as their regime naturally accounts for it. Unlike family 'pet-dogs' who are either isolated from other dogs/unfamiliar people, or permitted/encouraged interaction with them.

Don't know what thread you made reference in Kelpie-i. I must have missed that one.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

What service dogs are you referring to Erny? If its seeing eye dogs and assistance dogs, the dogs and trainers i have come into contact with do socialise the dogs and i believe they do have a positive value to both humans and other dogs. The training then over rides the positive value- if this is not possible, the dog is pet homed- is this over socialisation or the individual dogs temperament?

ETA the other thread title is dog who ignores other dogs i think, if you want to have a read Erny

Edited December 28, 2008 by Cosmolo

[Just Midol]

I do believe police, security, protection and some sport dogs are neutralised. Whether it is done actively or in the course of their training/work is irrelevant to me.

I've never taken my dog out specifically to neutralise him to people - it's just occuring naturally as everyone ignores him

I neutralise Montu for the obvious reason, I want him to have no interest in other people or other dogs.

I'll neutralise any future sporting dogs as Schuhtzhund was created to measure a dogs working ability and I feel you should raise a schuhtzhund dog in the same way you'd raise a working dog.

I'll neutralise my future pets/rescue dogs as the only non-working dog I'll ever own is a Husky. They are hard enough to get recalls in without them placing high values on everything.

I don't care which way people go, both have benefits, both have percieved negatives (I say percieved as the negatives you'll see for neutralisation I don't consider negatives, and the negatives I spot for socialistion you probably won't agree with ), but when people start calling me cruel for neutralising my dogs then I wont be impressed.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Customs, quarantine and other 'sniffer' dogs are usually kennelled to my knowledge- not in order to neutralise but to make their work the absolute highlight of their day. I don't believe a dog needs to be neutralised to do this. When my OH worked scent detection dogs, they were all well socialised dogs but did not waste energy playing with other dogs or people. They certainly did have a positive value for dogs and people though.

Customs dogs (and I understand guide dogs too) are put into the private homes of "puppy walkers" up until about 12 months of age for environmental enrichment and socialisation. Info about their program is here:

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5652

When I say "into the homes" Customs puppies are not allowed inside the house, but the principle of having them socialised to a range of situations and people early on is applied - the puppy walkers take them to schools, shopping centres etc etc.

[Just Midol]

BTW, neutralisation whilst technically probably refers to a value of 0, in practice it doesn't so it's possible for a dog to be neutralised AND hold a slight positive value.

[Kavik]

I will socialise not neutralise future dogs, including any sports dogs I get. This is because I want to include them in family events and outings and also because I still don't see how neutralisation can teach a dog how to deal with the human interaction that will occur such as people and children coming up for pats. Since people are at times scared of my breeds of dog, I like to show that there is nothing to be scared of and that they are friendly and use it as a chance to educate people and make new friends.

With other dogs, I am still working out the best way to do this, all 3 of my dogs are completely different in their attitude towards other dogs, and I am not sure how much of this is breed traits, individual personality/temperament and socialisation experience.

[Kavik]

Double post sorry.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Kavik

[Benji&Cuddles]

ffs, wrong account again.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Benji&Cuddles

[Just Midol]

I will socialise not neutralise future dogs, including any sports dogs I get. This is because I want to include them in family events and outings and also because I still don't see how neutralisation can teach a dog how to deal with the human interaction that will occur such as people and children coming up for pats. Since people are at times scared of my breeds of dog, I like to show that there is nothing to be scared of and that they are friendly and use it as a chance to educate people and make new friends.

With other dogs, I am still working out the best way to do this, all 3 of my dogs are completely different in their attitude towards other dogs, and I am not sure how much of this is breed traits, individual personality/temperament and socialisation experience.

Just on this.

I can only speak about Montu, you obviously know he is neutralised.

If someone, including kids, comes up and pats Montu he looks at them... enjoys the scratch then walks away. If someone is scared of my dog then neutralisation is perfect, as it means he'll show very little interest in them which allows them to be comfortable around him as he won't be continuously approaching them, looking at them or just interacting with them, he will however, let them pat him.

[Kavik]

Kaos is happy to approach people, but is unsure when people approach him for a pat if they are loud or full on about it. Including kids. I would like him to be more confident in this regard. He prefers to be the one approaching. This goes for dogs too. I can't help but wonder if I had encouraged more interaction and pats with people and kids when he was a pup would he be more confident and relaxed about it. Once he goes over and says hi he loves getting pats.

[Kelpie-i]

Don't you think 'service' dogs are neutralised? I mean, by the mere fact they are around humans etc. etc. but with no interaction from which to attain a 'value'

Hi Erny, I wasn't making reference to the neutralisation process of service dogs, merely the housing and keeping of them. :p

However since we are discussing neutralisation, assistance/guide dogs are most certainly fully socialised as young dogs. I do believe that other service dogs ie. police, customs and quarantine dogs etc may undergone neutralisation to a degree but how this is applied is unknown to me. I can always find out

Customs dogs (and I understand guide dogs too) are put into the private homes of "puppy walkers" up until about 12 months of age for environmental enrichment and socialisation. Info about their program is here:

Yes correct Anita. Again, I was referring to the housing and keeping of these dogs once trained and working (from the other thread).

Is it just me or am I typing things in Chinese these days....

[Erny]

However since we are discussing neutralisation, assistance/guide dogs are most certainly fully socialised as young dogs.

I agree - they are. And certainly within the critical period, should be. I think many service dogs are fostered out to homes until they are 12 months old. From that point, 'work' begins and the emphasis on socialisation I expect, is diminished. "Work" becomes "attention" and "meals" and for many dogs I think makes the difference in their focus. I wonder though how many service dogs don't 'make it' due to lack of attention to the job at hand and whether socialisation beyond the critical period and up to adulthood is part of the reason?

I reflect back to when I trained at B & T kennels. Even though the dogs there had dogs either side of them, the trainer entering the kennel to take the dog out to work seemed to the dog to be the best thing since sliced bread.

Is it just me or am I typing things in Chinese these days....

Don't know what you're talking about, Kelpie-i ..... :p

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[bj2circeleb]

This can be verified by contacting any guide dog program throughout the whole country.

Once the period of puppy walking is over and they are returned to the training centres for formal training, they are housed in yards during the day with 4 other dogs, and in a kennel with one other dog at night. They are regualarly walked by volunteers and play with other people besides the trainer. They have no hesitation in learning to switch on and off.

Guide dogs who fail, do not enter the training program, for health or temperament reasons. Temperament includes being scared of loud noises, not comfortable enough around people or other animals, etc. Some are simply too hyper and these are usually passed on to be sniffer dogs. 5 of the dogs who were sniffer dogs at the Sydney Olympics at been bred and raised by Guide Dogs Victoria and part of their puppy walking program.

Custom dogs during the first 12 months, must spend time inside the family home each day to help with socialisation, and I know someone at my local dog park who has them for the first 12 months, and all of their dogs have passed and gone on to work, even though they are at dog parks every single day during the first 12 months of their lives. They also have always had at least 3 customs puppies at the same time and all were housed in the backyard together and played together all the time. They also had their own pet dog as well.

I have said before that I would love for someone to give me a link to somewhere on the web where I can find out more about neutralisation, and/or a book I could go to for further information.

[Erny]

I have said before that I would love for someone to give me a link to somewhere on the web where I can find out more about neutralisation, and/or a book I could go to for further information.

bj2circeleb .... if you search this forum using the key word "neutralisation" you should come up with a thread initiated by K9 Force. It's a lengthy thread, from memory, but it will set you on the path for learning more of it.

Let me know if you have trouble finding it.

Erny

[Erny]

No, don't worry ..... HERE it is.

[Quickasyoucan]

I find this topic very interesting. I haven't actively attempted to neutralise my dog to either dogs or humans but as he has grown older (I got him around 10 months he is now 5.5 years), it seems to have happened to a degree naturally.

When I first got him, being a staffy x everybody was a friend, everbody had a high positive value for him and he was basically a massive attention seeking wiggle bum :rolleyes: . But gradually, as he is out with me in all situations where a dog is permitted, he seems to have "neutralised" himself to a certain degree.

Because of certain people's reactions to him, if they have ignored him or moved actively to avoid him, I would now say that strangers hold very little value to him. If someone does ask to pat him or ask whether their child can pat him, he stands there and politely waits for them to do it but I don't get the feeling that it hold a huge value for him.

If I stop to talk to someone he would not actively seek to engage with them. In some ways, as someone has also said, where children are involved I find this a bonus because if kids to ask to pat him, particularly nervous ones, I think it gives them confidence if the dog just calmly stands there and allows it. I am not saying he doesn't enjoy it a little but if I had to give it a value I would say a plus one or at most a plus 2.

Having said that, there are a few people in his inner circle, who he has known since I got him who obviously still hold high value for him which I why I put neutralise in inverted commas above, as I am not sure if it counts strictly as neutralisation.

With other dogs too, he generally ignores them, but that is mainly because the ball is the centre of his universe

Edited for bad grammar!

Edited December 29, 2008 by Quickasyoucan

[jesomil]

I am pretty confused about neutralisation and its purposes.

All the good working dogs I have had contact with have had positive values assigned to basically everything and then training has overridden it. So in the end, you get a dog who is happy and confident with everything but is fully switched on and in tune with its owner when in training mode.

Do you neutralise and why? How do you neutralise and what do you choose to neutralise to?

Do you socialise and why?

I would love to know the answers to these questions.

The thing I dont understand is just say you have a dog who you have neutralised to people. It has been out and seen the world alot and is confident around lots of people but never seeks pats etc as it has never received them.

Just say this dog has one negative experience with a human (eg gets fallen on or gets a painful injury that needs treatment etc) how do you stop this dog then assigning a negative value to strangers.

I personally, would like my dog to have many, many positive people experiences to fall back on in this situation.

I think it is a training issue if you cant get your dogs focus off other people and dogs not how much value they place on their desires.

ETA nothing...............changed my mind

Edited December 30, 2008 by jesomil