Dogs Who Ignore Other Dogs

[Just Midol]

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I prefer neutralised dogs... I just hate it when people attempt to claim I am cruel for neutralising.

Did anyone use the "c" word? Perhaps I missed it.

Someone said they struggled to see how it could be humane. That's a statement about them, not about you.

They don't need to say it, it is implied in both of bj2circeleb posts. Of course I don't expect you to agree that she is implying I am cruel, nor do I give a toss if you agree.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Lord Midol

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I prefer neutralised dogs... I just hate it when people attempt to claim I am cruel for neutralising.

Did anyone use the "c" word? Perhaps I missed it.

Someone said they struggled to see how it could be humane. That's a statement about them, not about you.

They don't need to say it, it is implied in both of bj2circeleb posts. Of course I don't expect you to agree that she is implying I am cruel, nor do I give a toss if you agree.

Either you hate it, or you don't give a toss. Which is it?

You push an aggressive "I am the logical informed person, you are ignorant!" line in your posts to people who don't agree with you. You rarely demonstrate any basis for your accusations and you impose on people's courtesy and good will so much that you compromise your message. Belittling someone by typing "fail" at them doesn't make what they say untrue, or make what you say true.

[Kavik]

Like with Cosmolo, people DO come up to pat my dogs and chat to me about them. I enjoy this, and it is often a way to educate people as well as have some fun chatting.

Since it is important to get the dog used to things like being handled for grooming etc by handling different parts of its body, I would also think it is important to get the dog used to the type of handling they may receive from other people, especially children as they do not act the same as adults. If the only contact they have with people are from those that ignore them, how are they supposed to know how to react when one comes up to give them a hug?

Kaos is not interested in playing with other dogs. He is happy to go and have a sniff then go on his way. Which is fine. But he does not like when dogs want to play with him or bounce on him. Nerves, temperament or socialisation experience? I don't know. I would like him to put up with it more than he does. I avoid dogs which I think he won't handle. While I don't go to crowded dog parks, I do go offlead in quieter areas and training, and it is important for me that he does not react to what other dogs do.

[Tonymc]

Midol, you have made some good points in your posts which I agree with.

Neutralisation and the Stockholme syndrome are two totally different matters and world's apart.The Stockholme Syndrome is a process that may happen in situations where a Person becomes a Hostage or is being abused by a Caregiver,other half,boyfriend so on.

Neurtalisation is lowing the value a Dog has for something.This is not an abusive process like the Stockholme Syndrome and to compare the two is incorrect and humanising the Dog.

Neutralisation is a handy process.We would not want to be trying to hold up a mob of wild Cattle to turn them through a Gate or something and the Dogs run off to play with another dog or to see somebody!!!Be real handy,not!!!! Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Neurtalisation is lowing the value a Dog has for something.This is not an abusive process like the Stockholme Syndrome and to compare the two is incorrect and humanising the Dog.

I have no issues with either raising the value of a wanted behaviour or with lowering the value of an unwanted behaviour. It is dog training after all.

This part of the notestream kicked off because someone said that the ONLY thing a dog should value is the handler. That is where the comparison to Stockholm syndrome was made, unsurprisingly. I queried the dog only valuing the handler and gave an example of something drive-related that my dog values more than me. Instead of getting an answer, I was called ignorant and stupid by another poster. Perhaps you would care to answer the question Tony? Is neutralisation about neutralising everything but the handler, or is it only those things that the dog needs to avoid to work effectively? Or is it something else again?

[DeltaCharlie]

The current debate aside, what do you actually do with your dog? How often does it get to see other dogs? Other than your sister's dogs does it ever play offleash with others?

My dogs ignore others for the most part, although they will happily play if I don't need them to do anything. I have never tried to make them this way, I put this down to the fact that we do alot of dog sports so they are constantly meeting new dogs at training and competition so it isn't such a big thing to them. A dog that doesn't have that constant exposure to new dogs (or is always stuck on a lead when it happens) is going to be more excited at the sight of another dog than one who sees and plays with new ones on a regular basis.

[Cosmolo]

Midol- my dogs are not neutralised to dogs outside the home, they do interact with 'strange' dogs and puppies as part of my work and enjoyment for them. IMO its not possible to maintain a neutral value when i have other people regularly giving my dog positive experiences- i want them to experience this as i believe they enjoy it and i consider it important social interaction for them.

[Adele]

People seem to have differing opinions as to what exactly neutralisation is, just reading through this thread has made me curious and I'd like to find out more and read some things myself. Anyone have any recommendations of books, links, sites etc.. that I can have a look at?

[J...]

Do a search in the training section for a thread called "socialisation vs neutralisation"

[bj2circeleb]

Neutralisation is a handy process.We would not want to be trying to hold up a mob of wild Cattle to turn them through a Gate or something and the Dogs run off to play with another dog or to see somebody!!!Be real handy,not!!!! Tony

Tony what you are domenstrating here is that you have no idea of how to really train dogs. As I have stated in previous posts, I have an assistance dog who ignores dog without any issue or command when working. If I drop something, I do not have to ask her to pick it up, she comes and does it, even if she is in the middle of playing with another dog. Guide dogs do the same. Police and Customs dogs all live in kennels and spend their days, when not working in yards with other dodgs, and yet when I have come across them in my travels with my assistance dog, neither my dog nor their dogs have even glanced at each other. I never ever command my dog to leave other dogs, she does not need it. I also know people who have dogs who work livestock and they regularly play with other dogs and have time off for just that. But, when it is time to work, they work because they love their work. How is it that all of these dogs are able to do these amazing jobs and yet still play and interact with other dogs and people and yet dogs who are in the show ring and obedience ring need to be neutralised to other dogs and not want to be near them????

Any working dog has a work ethic and no reputable program would ever place a dog into work if they did not love what they did, even when millions of other things are going on around them. These dogs do not need to be neutralised becasue they are work driven, and they see their work as a higher source of importance to them than being with people or other dogs, yet when the work is done they like most dogs who are given an option would chose to spend time not just with one owner, but with other dogs and other people as well.

Look at the any guide dog you see working. When the harness comes off they behave like the avearge pet and play with other pets in the family and the dogs of family friends and the like. They are patted and played with by all members of the family, visitors, etc and never work while the handler is at work are doted on by all other work mates. Do these dogs then try to get to every dog they see or every person they see while walking through a shopping centre. Even if people wistle at my dog, come and pat her, grap at her, hug her, etc she ignores them if she is working. She has walked for 4 blocks with a dogs nose stuck up her arse and never once did she lose foucs or did I need to issue any command at all.

Put simply dogs are very very capeable of enjoying the company of other dogs and people and yet still perform as needed when the time arises and they need to ignore them.

If you can't train a dog to like other things ahead of dogs and people without denying them access to these things then you simply do not know how to train dogs. What you and others who advocate neutralisation deomonstrate is the belief that dogs who have regular and ongoing contact with other dogs, and who enjoy being with other dogs and people are simply not capeable of focusing on anything else if and when these things are around.

Dogs are social animals and given a choice they will chose to live with a large group of people, to only allow them contact with one, and to neutralise their feelings about all other living creatures is not understanding the basic social needs of dogs, who are not dogs, but are still living and breathing creatures. If dogs never wanted to have contact with other people, with the exception of one chosen person, then why do people even need to neutralise them to anything at all. Dogs are not specifically socailised to other people and dogs, they are just given an opportunity to meet with them on their own terms, and yet in the case of neutralisation, you actually have to go through a whole process to ensure that the dog does not see these things as positive, even though they are born believing that they are positive otherwise they would not seek them out.

I have never said that people who neutralise are wrong, what I have said is that the reasons that have been given for it are that like that given by tony above and is the belief that dogs are not capeable of enjoying the contact of other dogs and people and working or focusing on what the handler wants them to do as well. What I have clearly shown is that this is simly not the case and any working dog can clearly demonstrate that. I just cannot see a reason to do such a thing, when it is simply not necessary to train a dog. What is wrong with a dog enjoying the company of other dogs and people?

People seem to have differing opinions as to what exactly neutralisation is, just reading through this thread has made me curious and I'd like to find out more and read some things myself. Anyone have any recommendations of books, links, sites etc.. that I can have a look at?

This is a great link. It is against neutralisation, but gives detailed examples of why it is simply not necessary as I have also tried to do. My contact with people who advocate such things is that they have simply been unable to train a dog to focus on anything else without doing it. Rather than learn how to train dogs in better and more effective ways they resort to this as it is easy and simple to implement.

http://flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

[Just Midol]

<removed - cbf - will discuss training somewhere else>

ETA: Though Adele, do not read that ridiculous hostage page. The owner of that site and article has no idea what is involved in neutralising a dog. Neutralising is lowering the value dogs have for other objects (not lowering drive, two entirely different issues with some people confuse.)

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Tonymc]

Bj, by your post it is you who clearly has not grasped netrualisation by the following statement you made below.

Dogs are social animals and given a choice they will chose to live with a large group of people, to only allow them contact with one, and to neutralise their feelings about all other living creatures is not understanding the basic social needs of dogs, who are not dogs, but are still living and breathing creatures. If dogs never wanted to have contact with other people, with the exception of one chosen person, then why do people even need to neutralise them to anything at all. Dogs are not specifically socailised to other people and dogs, they are just given an opportunity to meet with them on their own terms, and yet in the case of neutralisation, you actually have to go through a whole process to ensure that the dog does not see these things as positive, even though they are born believing that they are positive otherwise they would not seek them out.

Anita, the neutralisation process would depend on the individual situation and type of work for example the dog was doing.

Tony

[vnv]

The current debate aside, what do you actually do with your dog? How often does it get to see other dogs? Other than your sister's dogs does it ever play offleash with others?

My dogs ignore others for the most part, although they will happily play if I don't need them to do anything. I have never tried to make them this way, I put this down to the fact that we do alot of dog sports so they are constantly meeting new dogs at training and competition so it isn't such a big thing to them. A dog that doesn't have that constant exposure to new dogs (or is always stuck on a lead when it happens) is going to be more excited at the sight of another dog than one who sees and plays with new ones on a regular basis.

No, she has attacked another dog before, seemingly unprovoked (she was off-lead, other dog was on-lead). She does not have reliable recall so I don't take her to off lead parks. Frankly I am terrified that she will attack again so I am even weary to let her off lead around my sisters smaller dogs. She and the GSD play very rough, biting each other etc and if my dog trys to run away from the GSD he pounces on her or puts his paw on her back to drag her closer to him and I am scared one day she'll snap. She had serious food aggression when I got her, but has calmed down a lot now and even lets the cats eat out of her bowl (I dont know how she would be with another dog as we have since moved out).

I take her to obedience where she seems fine with the other dogs. A lady there had a DA staffy and she and my girl got along quite well, the DA dog did snap at my girl once, but she didn't react.

I don't have any friends with dogs that can come over to play except my sisters.

Would getting a 2nd dog help? (I know I shouldn't get another dog to fix the problems of the first, just wishful thinking as I would love another one!)

[Kelpie-i]

Lead and Feather I feel your dog may have associated with "being good" only at dog training school. You must practice all of your obedience work EVERYWHERE, not just at dog training. This is the big mistake people make. Failing to practice obedience, ie. sits, recalls and other things at various places is a waste of your obedience time and money!

You need to enforce what she knows and step up the leadership ladder....does your school offer a tailored socialisation/desensitiation program?

Police and Customs dogs all live in kennels and spend their days, when not working in yards with other dodgs,

bj, I can tell you that this is most certainly NOT the case. Each dog is kennelled separately and most police dogs may live with their handlers. The only time they are out and exercised is when they are training or working. These are strictly working dogs, not pet or even assistance dogs. I am not sure of the source of your information, but I will tell you this is completely incorrect.

Police dogs, guide dogs for the blind and assistance dogs all have time off, play with other dogs, interact with other people, play with toys on their own, etc

Guide and assistance dogs maybe, but not a police dog! Some police dogs are extremely dog aggressive....watch out other poochies!

I have no issues with either raising the value of a wanted behaviour or with lowering the value of an unwanted behaviour. It is dog training after all.

Just to clarify, it is not the process of raising or lowering value of behaviour, rather raising or lowering value to an object, person or other animal.

Just for the record, I don't neutralise dogs and I don't see the value in a neutralised dog for a general companion pet or even a sporting dog, however the process is there and is used by those who thoroughly understand how it works. When done properly, the dog is still a dog and has just as much (if not more) fun than an overly socialised dog who is continously being told off for rushing people, jumping up and generally being out of control.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[bj2circeleb]

Police and Customs dogs all live in kennels and spend their days, when not working in yards with other dodgs,

bj, I can tell you that this is most certainly NOT the case. Each dog is kennelled separately and most police dogs may live with their handlers. The only time they are out and exercised is when they are training or working. These are strictly working dogs, not pet or even assistance dogs. I am not sure of the source of your information, but I will tell you this is completely incorrect.

Police dogs, guide dogs for the blind and assistance dogs all have time off, play with other dogs, interact with other people, play with toys on their own, etc

Guide and assistance dogs maybe, but not a police dog! Some police dogs are extremely dog aggressive....watch out other poochies!

Just for the record, I don't neutralise dogs and I don't see the value in a neutralised dog for a general companion pet or even a sporting dog, however the process is there and is used by those who thoroughly understand how it works. When done properly, the dog is still a dog and has just as much (if not more) fun than an overly socialised dog who is continously being told off for rushing people, jumping up and generally being out of control.

I personally know two federal K9 sniffer dog handlers and their dogs while in individual kennels overnight are in yards with other dogs during the day, and on their days off they are walked by kennel staff, and at any time they are not working or in their own individual kennels they are in yards with other dogs. Talk to the federal police K9 unit to verify all of this. I also know that this is exactly how customs dogs live and have had contact with some of the custom dog trainers. I know people who have puppy walked german shepard police dogs who they were aiming to become their attack dogs and they were to be socialised to all other people and animals. They had extensive time playing with other dogs and being patted and played with by a variety of different people. They have no intention of making such dogs disinterested in other dogs. I also knew two years ago one of the police dog trainers, and I was told that these dogs are regularly handled by other people and have regular contact with other dogs. Things may have changed since then, but it was the case then. It may be different once they are trained, but this was not the impression I got.

If I am to believe what you say my dog as an assistance dog and my friends guide dog both spend their whole lives being told off for rushing at people, jumping up and generally being out of control. I have never personally seen an out of control gudie dog acting in this way and I would love to know where this idea comes from. Believe it or not it is actually possible for dogs to enjoy playing with other dogs, being around other people and yet still be the most obedient dogs around, and I would think that guide dogs are a good example of this.

The only reason any of you can give for neutralisation is that without it dogs are out of control, do not listen to anything you say are alwasy distracted, and jump up on people and run a mack. Yet guide dogs are the best example of a well behaved dog and they are specifically not trained this way. If you can give me one inch of truth as to why my dog should be neutralised I would love to know it, but to date all any of you have said is that I know nothing and every guide dog, not to mention assistance dog on the planet is the most out of control dog around and never ever listens, jumps up on everybody they see, rushes at people, etc. I can't say I have ever seen a guide dog do this and I am not aware of anyone else who has ever seen it either.

I am open for someone giving me a reason as to why I should deny my dog interaction with other dogs and people and what positives it could possibly create, but you seem to be unable to provide any. If I am not fully aware as you claim of what nuetralisiation really is then please give me a link to somewhere where I can find something to explain it to me.

Guide dogs and many other working dogs are proof of what dogs can do and how well they can be behaved, while still having time around other people and dogs. Why is it that all those who advocate neutralisation do not take this into account. You see neutralisation as the only process of getting a dog to behave themselves and this has been demonstrated by many of your posts. Tony said that without it they would go to a dog or person instead of herding sheep, and yet all the working lifestock handlers I know have their dogs playing with other dogs whenever they are not working, and yet never ever have this problem. Kelpie-i says that without neutalisaion all dogs spend their whole lifes being told off becasue they constantly rush at people, jump up and are out of control. Yet, as I have said guide dogs are not neutralised and I have never seen them do this. Please give me soem solid reason as to why dogs should be neutralised and the benefits of it, because the best examples of well trained dogs that I know of are working dogs of all vareities and I do not know of any of them who are neutralised and guide dogs are not distracted and are not out of control. Someone has to ask where you get your ideas from.

[Kelpie-i]

bj, just fyi, federal police dogs and police dogs are very different. When fully trained, these dogs do not play with other dogs. I also know that if a police dog is housed with the handler, that hander must not own another dog.

I used to work for customs and am fully aware of how customs dogs are housed. I can tell you, that they don't romp around with other dogs. Quarantine dogs are housed in exactly the same way.

I was told that these dogs are regularly handled by other people and have regular contact with other dogs

I would dare say they were telling you porkie pies. Police dogs have only one handler and are not handled or played with by other people...perhaps for training purposes but not any time else. They most certainly do not play with other police dogs!

One of my instructors actually trains dogs for ADA and has mentioned some of the problems they are experiencing with some of the dogs wanting to go off and say hello to other people and/dogs whilst working which is a real concern for them. Now whether this is a problem that has come about due over-socialiation or one that the handler has allowed to fester I cannot clarify. You may be one of the lucky ones who owns a very good assistance dog that is able to distinguish between work and play mode, but I do know, from my very reliable source, that over-socialisation may be causing some problems with service dogs.

Kelpie-i says that without neutalisaion all dogs spend their whole lifes being told off becasue they constantly rush at people, jump up and are out of control.

bj, if you wish to quote me, please do so correctly. I did not say "without neutralisation.....", what I said was that due to over-socialisation, some dogs become uncontrollable...and I wasn't even referring to assistance dogs in my sentence. Please correct yourself here.

If I am to believe what you say my dog as an assistance dog and my friends guide dog both spend their whole lives being told off for rushing at people, jumping up and generally being out of control

Can you please show me where I said "because YOUR dogs are not neutralised they are uncontrollable"???

Please give me soem solid reason as to why dogs should be neutralised and the benefits of it, because the best examples of well trained dogs that I know of are working dogs of all vareities and I do not know of any of them who are neutralised and guide dogs are not distracted and are not out of control. Someone has to ask where you get your ideas from.

No one said that dogs should be neutralised. You seem hell bent on misquoting people bj. Please get your facts right before hitting the send button.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I have no issues with either raising the value of a wanted behaviour or with lowering the value of an unwanted behaviour. It is dog training after all.

Just to clarify, it is not the process of raising or lowering value of behaviour, rather raising or lowering value to an object, person or other animal.

OK, help the numpty here. Isn't a high value for an object a predictor for behaviour which is why the process is undertaken? What's the difference?

[vnv]

Thanks to those who helped with my problem.

bj2circeleb - my dog isn't a police, guide or assistance dog so maybe you could start another thread to push your agenda. De-railing of threads is actually against the forum rules. Thanks.

[Kelpie-i]

Anita, it doesn't really have much to do with behaviour, but rather the association the dog has with the object etc. Neutralisation takes place when the pup is going through the critical stage of socialisation, therefore all circumstances which may CREATE a behaviour is either removed or never presented, therefore responsive behaviours never occur.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Cosmolo]

I have started a new thread for those who want to talk socialisation vs neutralisation