Ravyk Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 [if this is the wrong forum section can someone please move it] My boyfriend and I have a bitza female who isnt desexed [the dog, although has adopted me, belongs to his mother]. She just turned three. Both are adament about not getting her desexed-I cant quite remember their reasoning. We are very careful with her-making sure she doesnt get out while in heat, generally keeping undesexed males away from her and continously keep an eye on her when she is around other dogs. As much as puppies would be fun [not saying that I would want her to have them-we do not need anymore pups on the market]-I'm getting a bit antsy with them not allowing her to be desexed. I've offered to pay for it as well. Is there any way I can make them see sense in getting her desexed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam&Saki Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 If they are concerned about the surgery, then you could let them know that it is now possible to have bitches non-surgically desexed. However if they are responsible owners who would never let an accidental pregnancy happen, why try to coerce them into desexing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 (edited) If they can prevent her from getting preggers, then there is no real reason to desex other than convenience. Can't you get those funky implants? Edited December 21, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 If they can prevent her from getting preggers, then there is no real reason to desex other than convenience. There are medical benefits to desexing, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 If they can prevent her from getting preggers, then there is no real reason to desex other than convenience. There are medical benefits to desexing, too. Exactly. I see no reason to keep a non-breeding animal entire. But if there's a really good one, perhaps the anti-desexing views could be more properly aired so I can see this from someone else's POV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam&Saki Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 And there are also medical risks to desexing. It's a complicated topic and the most accurate summary would be: Desexing a bitch makes her much less likely to get certain types of cancer, but also possibly much more likely to get other certain types of cancer. It's really up to responsible owners to make an informed decision about what is likely to be in the best interest of their own dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam&Saki Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 lilliesmum this topic has come up many times before. I asked if we could pin one of the many threads that had links to all the studies and research onto the topic, but none of them have been pinned, so the same questions come up again and again. In several previous threads I've linked to all the various places you can download the research and also provided general summaries but to be honest I don't think I can be bothered explaining again and again only for the topic to never be pinned and come up again a month or two later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 But if there's a really good one, perhaps the anti-desexing views could be more properly aired so I can see this from someone else's POV? It has been discussed many many times, often with your involvement, Have you forgotten? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 But if there's a really good one, perhaps the anti-desexing views could be more properly aired so I can see this from someone else's POV? It has been discussed many many times, often with your involvement, Have you forgotten? No, Gareth I haven't forgotten. But perhaps you haven't considered that there are new members all the time and as with many debates, it would be useful for those people to have this information provided when these threads commence. That's why I said "so I can see this from someone else's POV" because it could be that some of the newer members are not willing to ask the question I posed. Given your response, I'm illustrating that point perfectly. I understand that there is great passion on both sides of this debate (as with many other topics) and unfortunately, passion has a tendency of making views narrowed further rather than by opening the topic outwards for further scrutiny. I'm pro-desexing for all but appropriately registered breeding animals and I make no secret of that - my views are based on an animal welfare and rescue stance, as well as the health and well-being of the individual animal being a very strong reason for desexing pet dogs and cats. Equally the anti-desexing campaign has its own views and reasons for its stance and wouldn't it be nice if the anti-desexing views could be aired without emotion getting in the way of the facts? But if you'd rather not continue the discussion, I guess we have to leave it at that and everyone can just go off and find the information they "think" they need to make an informed decision. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Equally the anti-desexing campaign has its own views and reasons for its stance and wouldn't it be nice if the anti-desexing views could be aired without emotion getting in the way of the facts? What 'antidesexing' campaign? Do you mean providing information about the cons of desexing so that people can make up their own minds despite the constant barrage of incorrect information from pro desexing sources? I have never seen anyone say that desexing is to be avoided in all circumstances - I myself have frequently posted against desexing, but have always acknowledged that it is necessary in some cases. I promote surgical sterilisation to prevent unwanted litters and avoid adverse health effects of desexing - how is that an 'anti-desexing' campaign? If the aim of desexing is to prevent accidental breedings aren't we basically on the same side? Where is the 'emotion getting in the way of the facts'? The only emotion I feel is the occasional frustration of dealing with the untruths promoted by those that push desexing as an answer to all problems, that refuse to acknowledge that spay incontinence can be a huge problem for some owners or even recognise any of the other associated health problems. In all the years I have been posting on this subject on DOL I have never seen anyone here completely against desexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Why is it that they do not want to get her desexed? Why would you want a dog dripping blood for 3 weeks at least twice a year if it didn't have to. Obviously this dog doesn't live inside. Why would you want to risk that dog having an unwanted litter if you didn't have to? Sometimes I don't understand people. If they are worried about the dog not coping with the operations. I have had many bitches desexed, of varying ages, and they have all coped just fine with the operation. They have been back to normal the next day after thye have slept off the general anasthetic. Maybe tell them that if she gets stolen or lost then if she isn't desexed she could be used as a puppy making factory for the rest of her life. At least if she is desexed you don't have to worry about her being abused in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Why is it that they do not want to get her desexed? Why would you want a dog dripping blood for 3 weeks at least twice a year if it didn't have to. Obviously this dog doesn't live inside. Why would you want to risk that dog having an unwanted litter if you didn't have to? Sometimes I don't understand people. When was the last time you had a bitch in season? They don't drip blood for 3 weeks, it's usually only about 10 days that they actually discharge blood and some bitches are very clean and don't even drip. Some bitches only come in every 8 or 10 months, not twice a year. If enough care is taken to prevent litters, what is the problem? Not everyone wants to put a bitch through major surgery and destroy it's hormones forever for the sake of their own convenience, because they can't be bothered being a responsible owner and keeping their bitch totally secure. I have just gone through several weeks of fun with 5 girls coming into season, one after another, various stud males and no kennels or totally dogproof fenced areas. It's not that difficult. Any pet owner with a C- crate or plain crate and a dog lead can safely manage a bitch in season if they really don't want to desex.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Well said, morgan, totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 When was the last time you had a bitch in season? They don't drip blood for 3 weeks, it's usually only about 10 days that they actually discharge blood and some bitches are very clean and don't even drip. Some bitches only come in every 8 or 10 months, not twice a year. If enough care is taken to prevent litters, what is the problem? Not everyone wants to put a bitch through major surgery and destroy it's hormones forever for the sake of their own convenience, because they can't be bothered being a responsible owner and keeping their bitch totally secure.I have just gone through several weeks of fun with 5 girls coming into season, one after another, various stud males and no kennels or totally dogproof fenced areas. It's not that difficult. Any pet owner with a C- crate or plain crate and a dog lead can safely manage a bitch in season if they really don't want to desex.. I've looked after 3 bitches in season, all of them rescues that I was fostering at the time, with the last one being a few months back. I know they don't stream blood but they do drip every now and again. And those drips get on furniture and the floor which is something that maybe breeders are not phased by but I would have thought that pet owners might be. Do you have your bitches in season wondering your house like a they might do in a pet home? Is there any studies on what the side effects of so called 'destroying hormones forever' has? Apart from possibly stunting/changing growth if a canine is desexed before it is 'physically mature' what effects does desexing have on canines desexed afterwards? As for taking enough care to prevent unwanted litters I am sure that even you know of breeders, who are the ones that you would expect to take the most care, having unplanned litters occur. If this occurs in the breeders world then how can you be sure that 'Joe Blogs normal pet owner' can prevent unplanned litters. Afterall the pounds are full of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 (edited) I've looked after 3 bitches in season, all of them rescues that I was fostering at the time, with the last one being a few months back. I know they don't stream blood but they do drip every now and again. And those drips get on furniture and the floor which is something that maybe breeders are not phased by but I would have thought that pet owners might be. Do you have your bitches in season wondering your house like a they might do in a pet home? You would be silly to not cover your furniture, or confine bitches to areas where floors can be easily cleaned if they drip a lot. There are also bitch pants available to use if so desired. Common sense really.. Edited December 22, 2008 by gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Is there any studies on what the side effects of so called 'destroying hormones forever' has? Apart from possibly stunting/changing growth if a canine is desexed before it is 'physically mature' what effects does desexing have on canines desexed afterwards? The biggest concern with spaying bitches is incontinence, which is not always controllable with drugs. Even if it is, it is a lot of expense over the lifetime of a bitch, more than just putting her in boarding kennels for every season. We all know from reading posts here that spay incontinence can even strike puppies under 12 mths. It's onset, on average is within 2.something years (can't remember offhand) from date of surgery. And it doesn't matter how old the bitch is when desexed. I would rather pop an in season bitch into a C-crate for 10 days every now and then than put up with one leaking urine all over the furniture and carpet whenever the expensive medication isn't working. Why on earth vets don't encourage people to simply have the uterus and one ovary removed (leaving the other behind to produce a few hormones to keep the body functioning normally) is just beyond me. No puppies, no mess during seasons, no pyometra, no spay incontinence and no increased rates of cancer. The lower levels of hormones would probably reduce the risk of mammary cancer as well. But this has all been said many times before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam&Saki Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 What anti-desexing views / anti-desexing campaign? I've never heard of any such thing. There is plenty of documented evidence on the health pros and cons for desexing. Whether or not a dog should be desexed depends on the dog's gender, breed, age, size, and pre-existing medical conditions. In many cases desexing is the best decision for the health of the individual dog, in many cases it is not. If we ever get a pinned thread on this topic I'll go back, find all the research all over again, link to places online where you can download if for free to read yourselves, and provide summaries (including ways in which the research can be misinterpreted.) In the meantime anyone who wants to know the facts can either research them themselves, or see a vet who specialises in this area. It is not a case of us vs them, surely everybody should want to what is medically best for their own individual dog, I would think all dog lovers would agree on that. *** And yes, I have an inside dog in a pet home who is undesexed bitch. I thought the whole going on heat thing would be a nightmare but it was really no big deal at all. Saki sleeps on my bed, is allowed on the couches, and I'm a total neat freak, and I still found it no big deal at all Saki will likely be desexed after her next heat, by implant. This decision is due both to a pre-existing condition and a couple of other things she is at high risk of. My prior bitch was desexed. Personally I couldn't give a **** about people who want to take sides and have a war, I only care about doing what is right for my individual dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravyk Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 o.0 wow this turned into a bit of an arguement. I believe the reason they dont want to desex her is because it can stunt/change the growth of the dog also my dog tends not to drip when shes in heat, so thats not an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 And yes, I have an inside dog in a pet home who is undesexed bitch. I thought the whole going on heat thing would be a nightmare but it was really no big deal at all. Saki sleeps on my bed, is allowed on the couches, and I'm a total neat freak, and I still found it no big deal at all Same, Esme is just reaching the end of her first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I believe the reason they dont want to desex her is because it can stunt/change the growth of the dog What growth? The dog is already 3 years old, depending on the breed the cheeks may slim down a little giving the appearance of a longer nose, but that is it. Unless the dog is a giant breed and still has some chest development to go it's really not going to make a difference especially to a bitza which has no standard to reach anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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