Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?

[Cosmolo]

For the trainers- do you give a guarantee sight unseen that you can resolve a dogs behaviour problem? Why/ why not?

For the owners- do you expect a trainer to give you a guarantee regarding solving problems with your dog?

A few weeks ago i received quite an aggressive email, demanding that i provide a guarantee with regard to a serious behaviour problem. I don't give guarantees for the simple reason that i am not the only input into the dog so i can't guarantee what others (owners etc) will do. A plumber can provide a guarantee because 'most' people won't touch the plumbing after he's gone- i think dog training is different!

[matty]

As a dog owner:

I would like to see improvement etc to whatever problem i had, but i wouldn't expect a guarantee.

[Reddii]

I think it comes back to what is promised and how clear the communication is in the outset.

When it comes to dogs some people are just plain unreasonable and expect someone else to fix their problem for them - hence they might want a guarantee.

I think if it was explained to me from the outset that the trainer/behaviourist was there to work with my dog and me to provide the best possible outcome, but essentially it is up to me to do the work then that is fair enough. We are working with a living breathing animal - mental state etc comes in to play. You cannot guarantee a result sight unseen or otherwise.

I think anyone who starts out a conversation aggressively is probably best off avoided any way.

Cheers

Tony

[Nekhbet]

I tell my clients that I can provide them with the guidance and start their dog off on the right track but if they do not follow my suggestions then I will not keep providing the service as the dog will not improve. I also tell them that it can be hard, that it can be disheartening and they will feel like giving up but i'm only a phonecall/email away. The ones that want to put in the effort usually have no problems following my instruction.

It is owner dependant. Yes sometimes you have to change your tactics but hey its a living creature with a mind of its own. At the same time if they expect me to wave a magic wand and stop their dogs trying to kill them or each other with NO effort on their behalf its not going to happen.

[MolassesLass]

I would be very unlikely to pay for a trainer who was not willing to offer money back if there is no improvement in the issue. This would be agreed upon prior to anything starting.

ETA:

Or the trainer would need to offer a nominal fee initial consult with a basic plan talked about (what the trainer would do, what the owner would be required to do and what level the dog is likely to improve to if it works) before the training sessions at full cost.

Edited December 20, 2008 by molasseslass

[Nekhbet]

I dont know anyone around here who offers a money back guarentee on their services. You are paying for their time as well so technically they have provided you with a service - came to your house, analysed your dogs behavior, given their reccomendations etc which is what you pay for technically.

If I see the dog, cannot fix the problem (havnt had one yet) my policy is not to charge for that initial consult but to find a specialist that can help them and refer them on. Usually we discuss first before I arrive what is going on I also dont do blind visits.

ETA actually I charge slightly more for the initial as I spend longer there, we have a good discussion and try some techniques that will be implemented. Ongoing sessions are cheaper

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nekhbet

[MolassesLass]

Just wanted to make sure it's understood I said "an improvement" not "issue fixed" and I did't say a "full refund".

My POV comes from having an absolute fool charge my brother $200 for nothing. If the initial consult was a quick assessment and general discussion on the types of things that may be required for say $50 then my brother would have known he was a tool and not been out of pocket so much. I simply won't risk my hard earned dosh on a potential fool, whether recommended by others or not.

ETA:

And I only know of one place that does the above which is why I try and fix any problems my family or puppy owners have. I may not be the best or the quickest but I'm not a useless rip-off.

Edited December 20, 2008 by molasseslass

[Nekhbet]

one client had a quote for $500 - for ONE session! I find that insane, I want to see the dog walking on its front legs after the hour for that price.

talking to the trainer before committing to the money is the way to go as well, or look at the website. Although many sites are now fairly vague on what methods and successes actually occur.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

For the owners- do you expect a trainer to give you a guarantee regarding solving problems with your dog?

No. As Nekhbet says, the owner has to do the work for the problem to be solved.

Last time I paid someone (to help me with a couple of problems I had in the show ring) I was looking for the benefit of someone else's experience. I knew I had to do the work once she gave me some guidance about how to approach the things I was trying to solve.

[Cosmolo]

But do people believe you when you tell them what successes have occurred?

Thanks for your input molassesslass- I have never had an issue where a workable solution wasn't found for everyone, there have been occassions when i have wanted a second opinion and come back with another trainer to also assess the dog at no charge and we have continued on from there.

But i would never say this upfront to someone or give an upfront guarantee because i can't guarantee that the owner will do what i suggest. If an owner doesn't like my suggestions and doesn't try them- what then? The service has still been provided but the issue not improved due to owner unwillingness.

And we do charge more for an initial consult which is longer and more detailed with follow ups cheaper. I suppose it does require some blind faith in us from the client- as with hiring any professional to provide a service. Different though when you're dealing with someone's beloved dog- bit different to fitting a new tap!!

[MolassesLass]

Thanks for your input molassesslass- I have never had an issue where a workable solution wasn't found for everyone, there have been occassions when i have wanted a second opinion and come back with another trainer to also assess the dog at no charge and we have continued on from there.

In this case the trainer just wasn't even listening. He didn't pay any attention to my brother explain the dog's history etc, just gave his cookie cutter fix for all dog's any type of bad behaviour. And it was purely positive (proper purely positive) and had my SIL in tears trying to wait out the fence aggression on walks so she could praise. Wasn't told to come back, apparently it was all fixed in that $200 hour.

But i would never say this upfront to someone or give an upfront guarantee because i can't guarantee that the owner will do what i suggest. If an owner doesn't like my suggestions and doesn't try them- what then? The service has still been provided but the issue not improved due to owner unwillingness.

That's why I said it would need to be worked out before hand. Say trainer agrees to refund half of fees if the owner follows all instructions and there is no improvement (which would also need to be quanitified).

And we do charge more for an initial consult which is longer and more detailed with follow ups cheaper. I suppose it does require some blind faith in us from the client- as with hiring any professional to provide a service. Different though when you're dealing with someone's beloved dog- bit different to fitting a new tap!!

It is, especially when a leaking tap is known to be fixable every time and in a certain amount of time and the tap owner doesn't have to agree with the methods and nature of the plumber.

Are trainers willing to talk to potential clients for free and explain their preferred methods and so forth? If so, then the initial consult I am thinking of, probably isn't necessary.

[Cosmolo]

I can only speak for us- we do tell people what broad techniques we use- basically that we use a combination of rewards and corrections but we don't get into what rewards/ corrections are used on the phone because we don't know that until we see the dog. We let them know that the techniques vary to suit the dog, owner and situation.

[Cosmolo]

I don't know how to quote but your comment about the plumber and tap made me laugh- BUT is so very true.

[JulesP]

No I wouldn't ask for a guarantee but I wouldn't be approaching it as you fixing a problem but more as me learning. Sometimes you learn lots, sometimes a little bit Certainly been a few horse trainers over the years that I would have liked my money back from, lol.

I wouldn't be taking on someone as a client that sent a aggressive email.

[Just Midol]

Yes (I expect them).

The only two trainers I've used are great.

If a trainer tells me what to do, I do it, and don't see results I expect either my money back or another program drawn up. But like Jules, I see a trainer to learn how to fix issues myself and to expand my knowledge, not to fix my dog. That comes down on me. If something did not work at all and I had done it how I was taught I'd expect money back or another session.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Cosmolo]

Who decides if you have done it how you have been taught though? I have had clients who genuinely think they are doing something correctly but have forgotten one or two crucial details which affects the results- we resolve these things in the next session. Who decides on the time frame for the improvement to happen? If trainers provide a guarantee and an owner decides they should have seen improvement after one session and believes they haven't- what then? I'm talking about behaviour problems rather than teaching Fido to walk on a loose lead.

[Just Midol]

Who decides if you have done it how you have been taught though? I have had clients who genuinely think they are doing something correctly but have forgotten one or two crucial details which affects the results- we resolve these things in the next session. Who decides on the time frame for the improvement to happen? If trainers provide a guarantee and an owner decides they should have seen improvement after one session and believes they haven't- what then? I'm talking about behaviour problems rather than teaching Fido to walk on a loose lead.

You should be telling them the time frame & shouldn't most behavioural problems require more than one session anyway?

Or first session - break - follow up. If they've been doing what you said in the first and haven't seen results then it's obviously your training program.

If they've forgotten a few details and done it wrong then they haven't been doing what you said.

[Cosmolo]

If you see a vet for a medical problem with the dog and the vet prescribes antibiotics- you give the antibiotics and see no change- do you expect a refund? Or for the next consult to be at no charge?

[Just Midol]

If you see a vet for a medical problem with the dog and the vet prescribes antibiotics- you give the antibiotics and see no change- do you expect a refund? Or for the next consult to be at no charge?

Yep, and my vet gives me the next consult at no charge.

When I took Lily in for an ear issue, I also discussed a urine issue. I got my next checkup for her urine at no cost, even though the two issues were completely unrelated.

I guess I would differentiate between a behavioural problem and a training issue though. MAYBE with a behavioural problem my guarantee expectation wouldn't be so iron clad as it isn't so simple. My dogs have never had a major behavioural issue so I'm finding it tough to consider it properly. I think it depends on the issue involved. For example, I wouldn't expect a guarantee on fixing Gizmos DA (but I don't really care about fixing it.)

Edited December 20, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MAC]

i have to say this is a tricky question!!!

1 anyone who is inexperienced CAN NEVER handle a dog like a EXPERIENCED person can.. i know this AS I have seen it not only on DVD's but in real life and also in training my own dogs.

YES you can take your trainers word and assistance AND while they are standing there watching you THEY will pick up on YOUR mistakes, which 99% ofthe times you do not see.

Taping your training session ARE great BUT we as humans ALSO go on habit.. SO it mighttake you 5 or 6 tries to get it RIGHT!

so to expect a guarnatee well.. i would like to see improvement AND any kind of training IS some kind of improvement.. providing it doesnt break the dog. but i dont think it's as easy as a YES OR NO!

If he's a great trainer you will see results in the 1 session... if not... and you dont feel right CHANGE but that's all i can really say on this matter.. If i'm not happy with a method i will say so and change.. not ask for money back or humiliate myself OR someone else.. DIfferent however IF i have left my dog at a training Academy THEN YES i DO expect my moneys worth but i still dont see the point of that IF i want to LEARN?

INHO