Another Toileting Question

[seashell]

Hi all,

I picked up my new cavalier pup yesterday, we've named him Toffee! He is a big cutie. Thanks to everyone who gave me overnight crate training advice, it worked well! Except he cried at about 5am, didn't need to toilet think he just wanted to play. So we thought, it's close enough to morning and we put him and his open crate back in the pen, then went back to sleep

Anyway I have another problem... Toffee just doesn't pee/poo outside. The only exception being last night at 3am when he cried in his crate, I took him out and he peed - must have been rather busting. Other times though, he just won't do it, and I've waited outside for a long time. I take him out at the times I've read - after he wakes up, after eating/drinking, after playing... Not long after I put him back in his pen, sometimes immediately, he will pee/poo on the newspaper! I think he is just used to doing it in the pen because the breeder had all the puppies in a pen too. Also perhaps he just sees going outside as playtime.

Any ideas on how to break this habit? I've tried to move some of the soiled newspaper outside so it has the smell, but he just started to shred it, sigh. Should I rely on the crate more, eg if he doesn't do it outside, bring him back inside and lock him in the crate, then take him out again in 15mins? Another friend suggested not putting newspaper at all as it encourages him to do it there, but sometimes we won't be home so ideally he'll know that is his backup. And I think he'd just do it on that end of his pen regardless of whether there's newspaper there...

Absolutely any ideas would be much appreciated, me and my husband are pretty clueless, it's our first puppy! Thanks!!

[poodlefan]

Don't bring him back inside until he pees or poos.. take a treat out for him and praise and reward him when he does.

Now that the weather is getting better, spending some time outside with him will help. Grab a cuppa, take him outside and stay there a while.

You're probably being just a tad hasty coming back in. Sometimes they get distracted by being out there and take a while to settle down.

I would take him outside when he first wakes.. probably your best chance of getting him to pee immediatel as his bladder will be very full.

Edited December 20, 2008 by poodlefan

[The Spotted Devil]

When my Dally was a pup, for the first week outside = toilet NOT playing - I confined him to a relatively small, uninteresting area and kept it very business like so he could distinguish as quickly as possible what I wanted him to do. It worked very well for us and then I could progress to allowing him access to the yard for a play as a reward AFTER toileting. Hope that helps

[Dogsfevr]

Just stick to your routine & it will learn.

You could also consider taking the pen outside & allowing pup to go inthe pen so it gets started & wean it away.

[Kelpie_Pup]

Is the newspaper necessary? ie is it on carpet?

Newspaper, IMO, only encourages inside toileting. If you don't intend on allowing it forever, don't start it now.

When outside, like PP said, keep it very business like. No toys or playing. Repeat the command to your pup-whatever you have decided that is- and do not look at them...some dogs see this as an invite to play. Stand still, arms crossed.

If you then must bring him in and he hasn't toileted, put him in his crate .. then try another 10 mins later. He will have to learn-well this is what we did anyway- that if he isn't going to toilet outside as you have requested, that he will have to remain in his crate... which isn't such a bad thing you know!!

IF he toilets inside, and you CATCH him in the act, it is ok to kick up a stink but ONLY if you do it RIGHT as they are in the act.. they will then associate your annoyance/distress with him weeing/pooing inside... Halle tried to poo inside only once.... we stopped her with a very high pitched, distressed "Halle NO NO NO!!!!" and picked her up and ran outside..where she finished on the grass I mean, obviously you don't need to get really angry, just enough of a change in your mood for them to think "hang on, what I just did really upset them"

If it's been a considerable amount of time since he has peed, don't allow him free roam of somewhere he could pee that is undesirable ie. in his pen. If he hasn't peed outside and he really should have, bring him in and put him in his crate only.. he has to learn that he wll have to pee outside or nowhere at all

[poodlefan]

I missed the bit about the newspaper.

I agree Kelpie-Pup, allowing the pup to toilet inside under some circumstances but not other sends conflicting messages.

If you want him to toilet outside then your aim must be that he does all his toileting there. If you are missing that first big toilet of the morning because you don't get up when he wakes then you are reinforcing that inside is OK.

[seashell]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I've cleaned up all his pen area with urine remover and not placed down the newspaper (though he has already peed once in the same spot w/o paper, sigh). After he gets dinner, I'll take him out and try all the suggestions. The problem is, I don't play with him but he easily entertains himself outside - he finds a leaf or stick to chew, or he chews on my pants, or he may just lie on my foot - anything but pee.

I will def try the crate, though he isn't fully crate trained yet he will cry a lot if i close the door for more than a few minutes at the moment... otherwise confining him to a small area outside until he pees is a great idea if I can think of a way to do it, and also my husband thought that moving the whole pen outside would work too like settrlvr suggested, so if all else fails we'll have to do this hopefully tomorrow!

How long in general do i wait outside until i bring him in to crate? I have been staying 1/2hr+ at the moment. I thought puppies couldn't hold it in but apparently Toffee can! It's also hard to know whether he even needs to pee.

Thanks again, you guys are great!

[Kelpie_Pup]

How long in general do i wait outside until i bring him in to crate? I have been staying 1/2hr+ at the moment. I thought puppies couldn't hold it in but apparently Toffee can! It's also hard to know whether he even needs to pee.

Thanks again, you guys are great!

Hey Seashell

For us, we would wait 10 mins. If Halle didn't go in this time, she was brought back inside and either confined in her crate or to the kitchen area-which is tiled-right next to where we were in the living room (they're adjoined). She was only EVER allowed in with us on the carpet if we had taken her outside to wee just before. We pretty much removed the oppportunity for her to make a mistake.

Re the whining in the crate- you must persist Fully crate trained doesn't refer to them not crying once they're in there. The crying will be for one of two reasons- they need to wee/poop.. tough luck-you've just been outside for 1/2hour+ so should have done it then! OR he's cranky cause he's been confined. He will need to get over that. He has probably already learnt that if he is put in his crate, and has a bit of a whinge, you will get him out after only a short time. What you do now is what he will continue to expect in the future.. Halle cried a few times in her crate for up to 20 mins. She'd already eaten, had peed/pooped outside so there was nothing wrong with her.. it took her two nights to figure out that crying and wimpering was NOT going to get her out of that crate for cuddles.

It's quite similar to controlled crying with babies actually LOL

ETA- the most important thing is that you persist. Choose a method and stick with it for at least a few days. It's the only way to really see if it will work or not

Edited December 20, 2008 by Kelpie_Pup

[seashell]

Thanks Kelpie_Pup, I really appreciate it and for all the others. If it weren't for you guys I prob would have given up and resigned to a life of newspapers

Anyway earlier on I took Toffee out, and as per The Spotted Devil's advice I changed the spot to a very boring corner where I could pretty much section him off. I didn't make eye contact but of course kept glancing down to see if he did it. Nothing. So I put him in the crate, went back 10 mins later and opened the door and he was asleep and didn't come out. So I waited until he woke up and went straight outside to the same spot, and... he peed!! I praised him like a mad woman, I'm sure he gave me weird looks Afterwards I played with him a little in the yard. After another nap later I took him to the same spot and he peed again, yay! But I just had a shower and when I came out he had peed in the pen again - my fault of course. I'm trying to write down his feed/pee/sleep times see if I can find a rough pattern lol.

Lets hope I can be more vigilant and better at predicting when he wants to go. I'll be excited when he does his first poo outside

Thanks again, you guys are the best!!

[The Spotted Devil]

Wait until there's a thunderstorm and you dance with your pup up and down the street so he thinks loud noises are FUN! Not only will your pup think you're mad as a hatter but so will your neighbours

Well done on your progress - keep going and don't give up

[Kelpie_Pup]

We pretty much removed the oppportunity for her to make a mistake.

Well done Seashell!!! What a bonus this morning :rolleyes:

Remember, to use the crate effectively, if he cannot be supervised, he should be in his crate, or when he's a bit older, outside. This morning when you were in the shower, he had the opportunity to make a mistake .. when he is in his crate, he won't be able to do that 10-15 mins several times a day is no problem at all for a puppy Just do the toilet thing straight after