Obedience Vs Leadership

[Fady]

I was reading the aggression and natural protection thread and there was a bit of discussion on obedience and leadership and some great points were raised about dogs only listening to their owners because they know they will get treats etc, and also about dogs using obedience to control their owners. It seems obedience =/= leadership, far from it. So here are a few questions:

What is the difference? (I think I already know, but just to make it clear and for others that read)

How do you know if your dog respects you as a leader?

How do you earn your dogs respect as a leader?

It was also said that the only dangerous dog is the one that makes up its own mind- How do you stop a dog from making up its own mind?

Feel free to answer any or all the questions, I'm sure theres more I had in my head before, but they're gone now, so any info/opinions on the topic are appreciated.

As a side note, my boy Tyson (5 months old) listens to me whether Ive got treats or not (probably because he thinks I do) but when there are lots of people and excitement he wont listen to the more difficult commands (eg he will sit but wont roll over). I know he's still a pup but Id like to know these things from now so I can instill it from a young age, I'm currently using TOT and NILIF, though I should probably re-read both of them.

Cheers,

Fady

Edited December 17, 2008 by Fady

[Just Midol]

I was reading the aggression and natural protection thread and there was a bit of discussion on obedience and leadership and some great points were raised about dogs only listening to their owners because they know they will get treats etc, and also about dogs using obedience to control their owners. It seems obedience =/= leadership, far from it. So here are a few questions:

What is the difference? (I think I already know, but just to make it clear and for others that read)

Obedience is a conditioned response (correct word?) so the dog is only doing it because he knows he gets something out of it. If you took away the presidents food, then offered him a steak if he sat he'd probably do it. He is clearly the leader, but he listens to you because he'll get something from it.

How do you know if your dog respects you as a leader?

The way he acts and reacts to you, and around you. I find it's different in all the dogs I've owned. Lily does things which don't bother me, but if Gizmo were to do them I'd have to have a good hard look.

How do you earn your dogs respect as a leader?

Enforcing the rules.

It was also said that the only dangerous dog is the one that makes up its own mind- How do you stop a dog from making up its own mind?

Don't give him the option to do anything other than what you say.

Feel free to answer any or all the questions, I'm sure theres more I had in my head before, but they're gone now, so any info/opinions on the topic are appreciated.

As a side note, my boy Tyson (5 months old) listens to me whether Ive got treats or not (probably because he thinks I do) but when there are lots of people and excitement he wont listen to the more difficult commands (eg he will sit but wont roll over). I know he's still a pup but Id like to know these things from now so I can instill it from a young age, I'm currently using TOT and NILIF, though I should probably re-read both of them.

Cheers,

Fady

My comments in bold.

[Reddii]

What is the difference? (I think I already know, but just to make it clear and for others that read)

Leadership is what you provide to your dog so that they have the confidence to know that they don't have to make decisions for themselves. (Above and beyond the basics of survival like 'yes, I have to poo, yes, I have to breathe). They understand that you are the keeper of resources and that by obeying you or working withint the rules you define their life is better. They will question this, but it is up to you to be consistent and provide boundaries.

Obedience is 'just' a dog sport or party tricks depending on how far you want to take it. I will be trialling in the new year so I am certainly not bagging any one involved, but still consider most of what we do past the simple sit/stay/down/heel to be fun in the same way flyball and agility are fun, but not much in the way of life skills. You don't necessarily need treats or anything else to teach it, in fact 'in the ring' you are not allowed treats.

How do you know if your dog respects you as a leader?

It lives within the rules you have set and enforce.

How do you earn your dogs respect as a leader?

You are consistent in the way you enforce the rules and control the resources in its life. When they understand that certain behaviour yields certain results (on your terms) the you are the leader.

It was also said that the only dangerous dog is the one that makes up its own mind- How do you stop a dog from making up its own mind?

Providing it with the confidence that it is best off letting you make the decisions. My boy was on the way to being F.A., but he now understands that I am the protector/leader of our pack and that if he is out of his comfort zone (OK, human term, but you get the picture), then he is to defer to me and all will be OK. He does not make the decision to protect himself - he will look to me and I will tell him close or 'it's OK' and he will act accordingly.

My two cents.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

How do you know if your dog respects you as a leader?

The dog looks to me in uncertain situations for guidance on how to proceed. The dog respects the boundaries I have set out. If the dog tests me, the dog backs down when I hold my ground.

How do you earn your dogs respect as a leader?

Being calm, consistent and having demonstrable self control in high stress situations. Not allowing yourself to fall apart, lose your shit or otherwise drop your bundle in front of the dogs. Understanding that you are a monkey and your dog is a canine, and having respect for both positions.

It was also said that the only dangerous dog is the one that makes up its own mind- How do you stop a dog from making up its own mind?

I'm sorry, but that is complete bollocks. My dogs can choose anywhere in the yard to eliminate. My dogs can choose what of the toys I leave out they might like to play with. My dogs choose where on the floor they want to flop out and sleep. I only fail as a leader if my dogs are making decisions about things that I should be making decisions about. A leader controls the things they care to control, they do not try to control everything if they are smart. A leader who tries to control everything will become a slave to their ego.

ETA: My dogs know far better than I do how to chase a rabbit over uneven ground and they do a much better job of it than I would. Many breeds are bred to think and act independently in order to serve the needs of their humans.

Edited December 18, 2008 by anita

[Fady]

Thanks for the informative responses guys

anita - I think that last comment was made in regards to uncertain situations, not everyday or instinctive decisions.

Cheers,

Fady

[Gayle.]

I'd like to add to this:

How do you earn your dogs respect as a leader?

because I believe it's more than just enforcing rules. It's also about keeping your pack safe from harm, providing warmth and comfort for them, watching out for them and keeping their stress levels low. If a leader does all of those things, the pack don't need to make their own decisions because they can be confident and comfortable that the correct decisions are being made for them.

Leadership is a "whole" thing....not just one area of dog ownership.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

because I believe it's more than just enforcing rules. It's also about keeping your pack safe from harm, providing warmth and comfort for them, watching out for them and keeping their stress levels low. If a leader does all of those things, the pack don't need to make their own decisions because they can be confident and comfortable that the correct decisions are being made for them.

Leadership is a "whole" thing....not just one area of dog ownership.