Aggression And Natural Protection.

[B-Q]

Hmm, I might not know wnough to answer this but heres my opinion as of now.

Harry, he had all the right socialisation with dogs and people. He was treated well by us and didn't have any bad experiences. But a combination orf poor breeding and whatever happened to him before we got him at 4months old and he has matured into a dog that can only be trusted with one other of our dogs, me, my sister and my mother.

I do think what he has is a lot of fear aggression, he is insecure in a lot of situations and he shows that. However the difference is that thanks to good leadership, he doesn't act out when with my mother. He can be in the vet surrounded by people and dogs and just lie on the floor at her feet. He can walk past people and other dogs fine but in no way are they to get in his face.

On top of that he has a massive protective streak. A point where he is different from "I'm agro because I'm scared", in some situations, he is very confident in himself, situations where there could be an actual threat. He is your typical ACD in that I have no doubt he would give his life for any of his people. He's the most interesting dog I've met yet behaviourally and he's in no way that perfect controlled protection but he's a good dog and he tries really hard.

Edited December 16, 2008 by busterlove

[myValkyrie]

Not sure if this is relevant (or even interesting ) for the purpose of this thread but I take great interest in watching my LGDs (a Kangal & several Maremmas) at work - none of whom have had any formal obedience training - just basic good manners. I think their behaviour is a little "different" to what a lot of dog owners expect.

There is a very definitive pack structure - the lowest pack member, if threatened will be defended vigorously, as will any other pack member. The dominant male is less tolerant of lower pack members but the dominant female runs the show. My dominant female is very protective (of her territory) so will defend me because I am within it. If I tell her to "leave it" she will, however she is extremely watchful & will threat display if a stranger moves too far away from me (& in doing so becomes 'fair game' IYKWIM). If she perceives a definate threat (carrying a stick, stamping at her to "get away", raised voices or aggressive behaviour), she will require physical restraint.

I don't believe she is fear aggressive - but maybe I just am not reading her correctly? She will not approach strangers at all & even once introduced remains highly suspicious - the Maremmas once introduced are really social - so long as me or OH is there, they adore visitors.

[Just Midol]

Not sure if this is relevant (or even interesting ) for the purpose of this thread but I take great interest in watching my LGDs (a Kangal & several Maremmas) at work - none of whom have had any formal obedience training - just basic good manners. I think their behaviour is a little "different" to what a lot of dog owners expect.

There is a very definitive pack structure - the lowest pack member, if threatened will be defended vigorously, as will any other pack member. The dominant male is less tolerant of lower pack members but the dominant female runs the show. My dominant female is very protective (of her territory) so will defend me because I am within it. If I tell her to "leave it" she will, however she is extremely watchful & will threat display if a stranger moves too far away from me (& in doing so becomes 'fair game' IYKWIM). If she perceives a definate threat (carrying a stick, stamping at her to "get away", raised voices or aggressive behaviour), she will require physical restraint.

I don't believe she is fear aggressive - but maybe I just am not reading her correctly? She will not approach strangers at all & even once introduced remains highly suspicious - the Maremmas once introduced are really social - so long as me or OH is there, they adore visitors.

Interesting and relevant.

A LGD is different to a normal pet dog or any of the guarding breeds though (especially working line dogs) in that natural protection is bred into them isn't it? It's all instinct based, rather than a learned response like the traditional protection breeds who have the drive to perform, but have to be trained?

I don't know much about LGDs so correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

[myValkyrie]

Interesting and relevant.

A LGD is different to a normal pet dog or any of the guarding breeds though (especially working line dogs) in that natural protection is bred into them isn't it? It's all instinct based, rather than a learned response like the traditional protection breeds who have the drive to perform, but have to be trained?

I don't know much about LGDs so correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

Pretty correct - they don't require training as such (to guard) - just opportunity, guidance and encouragement. It's instinctive to a point - it varies between individuals & I personally find the two breeds work quite differently. They do learn different ways of handling different levels of threat but the basic desire to guard is already there.

[Reddii]

I've been through an interesting time with this over the last 12 months with my BC who is now 2. I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that if you have your pack structure right you will have no problems with your dogs, however I think there is something in the whole trusting the leader thought process.

I am a new dog owner - my dogs are 2 and 2.5 and they are my first dogs. I've made a lot of mistakes with my dogs, one of them was to let CK get roughed up in a dog park and have to defend himself. He is a physically strong dog, but quite a timid/soft dog. At the age of 4 months he had rolled an out of line Goldie on to it's back and told it off for jumping all over him (I was too slow and didn't see it coming.) - fair response from CK.

Only problem is that this meant to him all dogs that got in his face were to be told off, no question. I've seen him pick up a doberman and tell it off (not a nice sight for any of us), same with a couple of other bigger dogs that got in his face.

All of this happened without him 'checking in' with me - he made the decision. Since realising what was going on I've done a LOT of work to restore his confidence in other dogs and in me. Now he can tolerate other dogs approaching him and even being bouncy around him, if he feels he is out of his depth he comes to me before doing anything about it.

I think we've just managed to avoid a fear aggressive dog and feel that strong and consistent 'leadership' has been the key - for me it comes back to the trust relationship we have built.

I agree with LM - obedience is different to pack leadership, but also have to say it helps to reinforce the leader's status. (Both my dogs are just about at trial standard in obedience and do compete in agility and flyball.)

Hope this contributes to what you were looking for.

Cheers

Tony

[BJean]

This is mainly aimed at those who believe in the pack structure and dominance theories. If you don't, feel free to reply but you won't really be giving me the info I am after, or the discussion I am after.

I've been thinking about the number of people who claim their dogs naturally guard and protect them, then see things like "We have to keep him away from people" or "we have to keep him away from people with x appearance"

To me that sounds like a combination of fear aggression and poor leadership.

Is it possible for a dog with no aggression and who is definitely low down in the pack to exhibit natural protection behaviours? I consider all natural protection aggression but that's not what I am discussing here.

My understanding is that the pack leader should be protecting the lower pack members, so if your dog is attempting to protect you then doesn't this mean that in his eyes, you are unable to protect him and he is assuming the role of pack leader?

This thread is NOT about trained protection dogs.

Views would be appreciated.

does it inlcude traditional LGD like Anatolian and Central Asian?

not sure

as there can be a lot of contradictions

[Just Midol]

I didn't intend to include them as imo their guarding is more instinctual, where breeds like the GSD, Malinois, Rottie, Boxer, Dobes seem to have the relevant drives but they won't protect effectively without pretty serious training. I know many like to think their dogs (of the previously specified breeds) can protect effectively without training but I'm not really interested in that debate

More talking about people with pet dogs who THINK the dogs are naturally protecting them, but any discussion including that on LGDs is wanted!

Edited December 16, 2008 by Lord Midol

[BJean]

I didn't intend to include them as imo their guarding is more instinctual, where breeds like the GSD, Malinois, Rottie, Boxer, Dobes seem to have the relevant drives but they won't protect effectively without pretty serious training. I know many like to think their dogs (of the aforementioned breeds) can protect effectively without training but I'm not really interested in that debate

yep thought so

many of the points raised would be like "yeah but ..."

"yeah but ..." wrt to ASD and CAO

and then different again for both.

In countries with different dog laws, some CAO are used as PP / army / police manstopper dogs.

Edited December 16, 2008 by lilli

[Just Midol]

I thought LGDs were bred to define the threat themselves? For example, if there is a threat and you call it off the dog will usually ignore you and attend to the threat?

That would create a very, very unreliable working patrol dog.

[BJean]

More talking about people with pet dogs who THINK the dogs are naturally protecting them, but any discussion including that on LGDs is wanted!

I am not sure whether it is resource guarding or defence wrt territory which makes them protect me

eg: my male kimba seems to have a 1 - 3 metre tolerance towards people when it comes to his space/paddock/pen

and on lead with me, wherever we may be.

Whereas my other dogs will not react at all on lead off the property - they go into defence from sense of territory.

There are no pack/leadership issues with kimba and I

even though there would seem to be by the way he will 'not listen' to me

ie: if I told Kimba to not growl at a person approaching he wont really obey, he might sit or stop growling for a moment but there is no way I can make him accept someone.

kimba is just the atypical dominant male anatolian

they can be bastards to manage

but his loyalty and level of protection is second to none.

Edited December 16, 2008 by lilli

[BJean]

I thought LGDs were bred to define the threat themselves? For example, if there is a threat and you call it off the dog will usually ignore you and attend to the threat?

That would create a very, very unreliable working patrol dog.

I don't believe CAO work with the same reliability and detailed command response / precision as typical working dogs.

Manstopper or dogs used by areas of interpol in Bulgaria, Romania etc

work in a very different way to say a patrol dog in Australia.

but lol way OT

[Kelpie-i]

I USED to believe that ALL dogs had an innate pack structure existence....but after returning from a seminar in the States with Ray Coppinger, that has changed some of my beliefs on this so I won't go down the "pack" theory for this one

I agree with PF's statement, this is not a "I'm protecting you" action, but rather, "I'm protecting myself".

[jesomil]

Now I am curious as to what you learnt about innate pack structure existence.....

[Cosmolo]

Me too kelpie i :D

ETA- i just read a review of Ray's work and agree with what he said- i'd love to read more though,are his books good kelpie i? Sorry for OT..

Edited December 17, 2008 by Cosmolo

[Kelpie-i]

LOL Jesomil, I would end up typing about 4 pages worth of stuff.

I'll type up something over the next few days if I get the chance...very interesting stuff!

[arawnhaus]

I'm all curious too! lol

Amy

[Just Midol]

Meh, I certainly don't care about going OT :D

[Nekhbet]

In countries with different dog laws, some CAO are used as PP / army / police manstopper dogs.

There is a video on youtube of CAO's doing manstopper work. You can see they are not really comfortable with doing it as say a GSD/Mal/Rottweiler would be. Yes they have the drive but the way they bite is more 'I'm warning you to stay away' then 'ok you're getting a new one now' :D

[BelgianPup]

A little off topic... but would appreciate it if someone could tell me what the following stands for :D 'CAO, LGD, ASD; (lol, I recognise GSD...) Thanks :D

Edited December 17, 2008 by BelgianPup

[Aphra]

A little off topic... but would appreciate it if someone could tell me what the following stands for 'CAO, LGD, ASD; (lol, I recognise GSD...) Thanks

CAO= Central Asian Shepherd (Ovcharka). One of the breeds of dogs generically known as LGDs or Livestock Guardian dogs. ASD is Anatolian Shepherd Dog, another of the LGDs.

http://takas-volkodav.com/ for pictures and info.