Aggression And Natural Protection.

[Just Midol]

This is mainly aimed at those who believe in the pack structure and dominance theories. If you don't, feel free to reply but you won't really be giving me the info I am after, or the discussion I am after.

I've been thinking about the number of people who claim their dogs naturally guard and protect them, then see things like "We have to keep him away from people" or "we have to keep him away from people with x appearance"

To me that sounds like a combination of fear aggression and poor leadership.

Is it possible for a dog with no aggression and who is definitely low down in the pack to exhibit natural protection behaviours? I consider all natural protection aggression but that's not what I am discussing here.

My understanding is that the pack leader should be protecting the lower pack members, so if your dog is attempting to protect you then doesn't this mean that in his eyes, you are unable to protect him and he is assuming the role of pack leader?

This thread is NOT about trained protection dogs.

Views would be appreciated.

[Kavik]

Are you including barking at the door/fence?

[Guest kermet]

Now here is an intereting topic,

If the dog is guarding against the will of the owner such as the owner having to keep the dog away from people as he cant controll it, this is a sign that the dog has taken on the leadership role. It is however posible for the dog who is lower in the pack to be protective when called upon and is only acting on the wishes of the pack leader. These dogs need to belive that they are stonger and more capable than anyone OUTSIDE the pack to avoid fear bitting and also posses enough self control to let the pack leader make the decision to fight freeze or flee. In the case of the dog barking at the fence it has been a common misconception that these dogs feel they are the leader and protector. This I believe is not the case, a well balanced dog which understands its place will alert of intruders etc but when the pack leader is comes to the door the barking and protectiveness should stop and the dog should trust your judgement. You dont want a dog that will allow strangers in the home without alerting you, but once you have been alerted, the guests can enter and leave on your terms.

Ofetn dogs which show a natural guard instinct and become problematic and you should seek a trainer to achieve confidence, stabillity and self control.

Just my opinions

Craig

[Clyde]

Is it possible for a dog with no aggression and who is definitely low down in the pack to exhibit natural protection behaviours? I consider all natural protection aggression but that's not what I am discussing here.

Yes I believe so. I believe that is the case with my current dog, however I haven't come across it previously.

I also disagree that natural protection = aggression.

[tanya]

I had a rottweiler some years ago who, although not aggressive to the extent as he would attack, he would watch certain people. For instance:he was on his chain, and some friends kids were just out of reach and teasing him with food, and he didnt do a thing but when the kids father came over, he Jagger(rottweiler) went burco.

Also when i would take him for a walk, anyone passing by, would be watched intensely by Jagger until they were way passed me.

Another incident, was when we had some friends come over. and one of them was wearing all black plus a black beanie. We were sitting in our shed, and friends were sitting across from us. Jagger was right in between me and OH and wouldnt take his eye off friend. Then friend called Jagger over to pat him. Jagger went over but he was always watching friend. And when friends were leaving, Jagger grabbed him on the arm, did not brake the skin. We did get him when he was 15months old and the lady lived in a neighbourhood which always has trouble with aborignals. Apparently there were many people that wanted Jagger but he only liked me.

Jagger was also different from when he was in his own backyard to when he was say down the beach.

I think that alot of dogs just have a close bond with their owners and some people might just look intimidating.

Oh, i have staffords at the moment, 1 of which is a dainty little 2year old female, who wouldnt hurt a fly. I was watching tv one night by muself, think is was called Hard Core Criminals, and this certain crimnal came onto the screen, well my wouldnt hurt a fly dainty little stafford went balistic. She virtually attacked the tv real aggressively every time his picture would come up on the screen, and would sit looking right next to me when his picture wasnt on the screen.

[poodlefan]

My personal theory is that a lot of people who believe that their dogs act to protect them haven't grasped the fact that the dog may simply be acting to protect itself.

Dogs barking their heads off at strangers would be one such example.

[BrunoBella]

Now here is an intereting topic,

If the dog is guarding against the will of the owner such as the owner having to keep the dog away from people as he cant controll it, this is a sign that the dog has taken on the leadership role. It is however posible for the dog who is lower in the pack to be protective when called upon and is only acting on the wishes of the pack leader. These dogs need to belive that they are stonger and more capable than anyone OUTSIDE the pack to avoid fear bitting and also posses enough self control to let the pack leader make the decision to fight freeze or flee. In the case of the dog barking at the fence it has been a common misconception that these dogs feel they are the leader and protector. This I believe is not the case, a well balanced dog which understands its place will alert of intruders etc but when the pack leader is comes to the door the barking and protectiveness should stop and the dog should trust your judgement. You dont want a dog that will allow strangers in the home without alerting you, but once you have been alerted, the guests can enter and leave on your terms.

Ofetn dogs which show a natural guard instinct and become problematic and you should seek a trainer to achieve confidence, stabillity and self control.

Just my opinions

Craig

I agree with your fence barking. Bella will bark (couple of deep barks) at someone at the gate and will continue the occasional bark until I come outside to see who is there. I understand this to mean that she considers it her job to tell me about burglars and my job to get rid of burglars. Bruno will only bark at people at the gate if Bella is not there so he is backup protection. When I let people into the yard they ignore them or cuddle them depending on the person.

I have spoken to trades people who come into my yard when I'm not there and the dogs still bark but they hide at the back of the yard where the burglars can't get them and they refuse to play with strangers if I'm not there to protect them. :D

I am very happy with this situation

[tanya]

My male stafford(1year old) was barking perfusely yesterday at our neighbour. He knows our neighbour and as soon as i came out and told him it was alright and i started talking to our neighbour, he totally changed to wagging his tail and talking.

Dont know why they do this, but they will often bark at the neighbours until i go out then they are fine...

[BrunoBella]

My personal theory is that a lot of people who believe that their dogs act to protect them haven't grasped the fact that the dog may simply be acting to protect itself.

Dogs barking their heads off at strangers would be one such example.

Poodlefan

You just helped me work out a little problem I have with Bella. The only thing she barks at that is not a person at the gate is wheely object going past (bike, trolleys, skateboards ect). I had a vague inkling it was a fear reaction and now I realise that is right. Will work on desensitising now.

I put up a fence inside the front fence to keep her further back from the footpath.

[Erny]

Poodlefan said it : IMO often (not always) a dog is reacting to protect itself ..... because it doesn't believe its owner will or is capable of doing that for him/her. This is when things become dangerous, because you have a dog who feels it needs to make decisions about things which are part of human civilization. Circumstances dictate though (eg. territorial responses etc) so this is not always the case.

I strongly believe that IF a dog has the inclination to protect you at all, he will do so regardless of you being a 'leader'. The dog is likely to sense when you can't manage as he'll pick up on your fear/uncertainty etc. etc. It would all be part of pack dynamics.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Erny

[BelgianPup]

Growing up we had a BC X Irish Setter. We got her when she was 6 yrs old. She was incredibly sweet and gentle and very friendly to everyone. However, if my brother and I (I'm the oldest and at this stage was still bigger than him) were play fighting (or real fighting) she would grab me by my clothing (ALWAYS the clothing... a sleeve or trouser leg) and drag/pull me away from him. Similarly if I was play fighting with my father (who was most definitely leader of the pack) she would do the same thing to him. It was quite a different behaviour to if she joined in play (she always seperated us if we were 'fighting'.)

Before we got her she spent a lot of time at a primary school (jumped the 6ft back fence at her place to spend time with the kids - owners didn't have enough time, my Dad was the school care taker - that's how we acquired her) where she was very protective of the kids particularly the younger smaller children. On a few occasions she actually herded (with a little growling) some bullies into a corner during recess and wouldn't let them go! They'd been teasing some smaller children who'd been noticeably upset (knocking icy poles out of their hands, standing over them etc.)

So in answer to the question Is it possible for a dog with no aggression and who is definitely low down in the pack to exhibit natural protection behaviours? I would have to say (based on anecdotal evidence and personal exp, lol) that yes it is definitely possible.

[Clyde]

My personal theory is that a lot of people who believe that their dogs act to protect them haven't grasped the fact that the dog may simply be acting to protect itself.

*nods* Totally agree. Like when people go on about how their dog saved their lives from barking in a house fire. I don't believe that the dog was thinking I must let my master know, more along the lines of get me out of here.

[persephone]

My old Mitchell was the sweetest dog around people and other animals generally... but he was also totally reliable as a self-appointed 'protector' when the two of us were anywhere ...if it was not a 'walking the dog' exercise.. and I was sitting/taking photos/ snoozing on a beach or something... NO ONE would get within a few metres of me without him growling/standing up...

He let burglars rob my car....

[Paganman]

I think I remember K9 Force saying something about this at one of his seminars that unless the dogs been trained in personal protection its just protecting itself not the owner.Most people like to think their dogs protecting them but its not the case.Apologies Steve if Ive got the wrong end of the stick and quoted you wrongly

[Monah]

Fascinating subject, I have NO idea on any 'answers' at all. I do agree with the dog protecting itself, I also think there is some sort of territorial guarding occurring in certain cases. I only have my own experiences to go on of course and have never had a 'guarding' breed to observe.

We have had cattle dogs though, and unless I have said OK, they have been very very strong boundary guarders. No one could get near the garden, house, ute, etc. However, when we have been walking they were fine with all dogs, people etc. EXCEPT when walked by the kids (when they were about 12 onwards as they weren't allowed to walk them before that) NO ONE could get near the kids at all. I guess that means they saw themselves as leaders when with the kids?? There were never any incidents, but people took one look and crossed the road.

We have also had them 'protect' other peoples children when out.

My viz will bark madly when dogs or people are around the garden, but watching her reactions etc. it appears to be over excitement and lack of self control (which I AM trying to cure and am getting somewhere thank goodness). Although she is a fearful dog too, so also would be protecting herself I guess. As soon as one of us investigates, she is fine. She looks to me for protection when we are out (goes behind me usually) and my spin is totally reliant on me for protection.

[Just Midol]

Are you including barking at the door/fence?

Wasn't intending to, but interested in views on that as well! I didn't consider that.

Now here is an intereting topic,

If the dog is guarding against the will of the owner such as the owner having to keep the dog away from people as he cant controll it, this is a sign that the dog has taken on the leadership role. It is however posible for the dog who is lower in the pack to be protective when called upon and is only acting on the wishes of the pack leader. These dogs need to belive that they are stonger and more capable than anyone OUTSIDE the pack to avoid fear bitting and also posses enough self control to let the pack leader make the decision to fight freeze or flee. In the case of the dog barking at the fence it has been a common misconception that these dogs feel they are the leader and protector. This I believe is not the case, a well balanced dog which understands its place will alert of intruders etc but when the pack leader is comes to the door the barking and protectiveness should stop and the dog should trust your judgement. You dont want a dog that will allow strangers in the home without alerting you, but once you have been alerted, the guests can enter and leave on your terms.

Ofetn dogs which show a natural guard instinct and become problematic and you should seek a trainer to achieve confidence, stabillity and self control.

Just my opinions

Craig

Great post. I agree with the fence barking issue. Montu has a pretty low suspicion level right now but we're working on it, but if people walk down the drive way he will bark at them. However, 95% of the time he will shut up as soon as I tell him to

My personal theory is that a lot of people who believe that their dogs act to protect them haven't grasped the fact that the dog may simply be acting to protect itself.

Dogs barking their heads off at strangers would be one such example.

Thanks, I was thinking along similar lines. I'm just surprised how many people basically describe fear aggression in their posts about natural guarding (of course I could be wrong) and have no problem with it.

Growing up we had a BC X Irish Setter. We got her when she was 6 yrs old. She was incredibly sweet and gentle and very friendly to everyone. However, if my brother and I (I'm the oldest and at this stage was still bigger than him) were play fighting (or real fighting) she would grab me by my clothing (ALWAYS the clothing... a sleeve or trouser leg) and drag/pull me away from him. Similarly if I was play fighting with my father (who was most definitely leader of the pack) she would do the same thing to him. It was quite a different behaviour to if she joined in play (she always seperated us if we were 'fighting'.)

Before we got her she spent a lot of time at a primary school (jumped the 6ft back fence at her place to spend time with the kids - owners didn't have enough time, my Dad was the school care taker - that's how we acquired her) where she was very protective of the kids particularly the younger smaller children. On a few occasions she actually herded (with a little growling) some bullies into a corner during recess and wouldn't let them go! They'd been teasing some smaller children who'd been noticeably upset (knocking icy poles out of their hands, standing over them etc.)

So in answer to the question Is it possible for a dog with no aggression and who is definitely low down in the pack to exhibit natural protection behaviours? I would have to say (based on anecdotal evidence and personal exp, lol) that yes it is definitely possible.

We actually had a dog similar to this, but he was very dominant (I realise this looking back, but I was about 7-13 so not much I could do). If two people were fighting or play fighting he'd go mad at the largest person.

---

Thanks for all comments guys

[Nekhbet]

I've been thinking about the number of people who claim their dogs naturally guard and protect them, then see things like "We have to keep him away from people" or "we have to keep him away from people with x appearance"

To me that sounds like a combination of fear aggression and poor leadership.

agree here. A lot of people love to think their dogs will fight to the death in sheer loyalty but the dog is probably more protecting itself and its posession - the owner. Well if it is within its nature to do so. Although it is surprising that although a dog can make a huge show, so many are easy to back down if you simply show you are not rattled.

For a dog, if you cannot do the job, they will do it for you and in the manner they see fit. So yes a dog that is lower in the pack structure, its 'leader' is incapable of protecting and the dog has it within its nature to do so will take charge of a situation and warn. I wouldnt bet my life on it though.

Great post. I agree with the fence barking issue. Montu has a pretty low suspicion level right now but we're working on it, but if people walk down the drive way he will bark at them. However, 95% of the time he will shut up as soon as I tell him to

He's still a baby. Let him mature he will do it on his own. Even my lemon of a rottweiler shows territoriality when I'm not in the yard or car - although when I am in there none of them will bark or charge if someone approaches the gate/window and when I open the doors they have tails wagging. You can have it both ways and its quite a weight off your mind. We even had a party of about 20 guests, fire in a washing machine drum and people having a bit of fun. The dogs didnt worry at all and in fact joined in - I was there, I didnt have an issue and hence they didnt either.

[Lablover]

poor leadership.

Off topic a little, forgive me.

We all have our views on leadership.

Is 100% obedience PERFECT leadership? What is 90% obedience - poor leadership?

[Just Midol]

Obedience levels have nothing to do with leadership, I can have perfect leadership and a dog that doesn't know a single command.

You're comparing aggression to obedience, that's absurd.

If you don't believe in the dominance theory then fine, but I'm not really interested in the views of those who don't in this particular thread.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Nekhbet]

Obidience doesnt give you the "respect" and "leadership" role but it can help in the role.

You've hit on an excellent point here Jesskah and a rather important one. So many owners are lulled into a false sense of security when the take their dog to obedience class or hand over the endless barrage of treats to make the dog behave. They dogs have little respect for the owner, but know that he/she represents an instant gratification whenever they command it.

Pet hate ... owner tells dog a command 10+ times, then giggles when dog doesnt follow through and leaves it oh my dog is obedient, but sometimes he doesnt want to listen. Owner is not a leader for the dog.

Remember also the dog can use obedience to train YOU! Dog walks up to owner, does a lovely sit and owner pulls out a treat for the dog. So who commanded who? THe dog commanded the owner for a treat, but for 90% of people it looks like the dog is a very well trained animal. Frankly its a very smart dog who learned to get what it wanted through obedience commands.

Remember ... the only dangerous dog is one that makes up its own mind. Its what I tell all my clients. If a dog is left to its own devices and takes on the role of leader then expect the unexpected.