Unsolicited Training Advice

[squeak]

Perhaps it is just me being overly sensitive, but I have honestly had a gutful of people trying to tell me how to train my dogs. Now, if I am at an obedience class, I don't mind, but seems lately that everyone is a trainer and "knows" the answer to all my problems.

Background.... we have two adopted "mutts". One is not at all food motivated - I get all the time "you need better treats". Better treats isn't the problem with her - I can have roast chicken/hot dog/cheese in my treat bag and she will go and happily approach and work for someone who has dry treats/kibble in their treat bag. She is just a social butterfly who loves people, and especially new people. Other dog is incredibly mouthy and bouncy, but has improved remarkably since we brought him home. It is just he gets way excited when he meets new people, especially when the other dog is around - he seems to feel he has to compete for attention. I try to explain this to people and I get "you need to do.....". I then try to explain that we are working on it and it is the situation and not the training (and yes, ideally we would avoid the situation until he was trained, but sometimes that isn't possible in the real world). Then I get supposedly "dog people" who he jumps up on, and they encourage, even though I correct him & tell them it is NOT okay.

How is it that I can live with these dogs and train them, yet everybody else apparently knows better than me? Sorry for the vent, just had a really rotten day and I guess I am fed up with people like this.

[poodlefan]

1. Smile sweetly

2. Thank them for their input.

3. Sift through it to see if there's any good stuff there.

4. If there ain't, ignore it.

Training is always way easier as an observer than as a particpant. But every now and again, you'll pick up some gems.

Edited December 12, 2008 by poodlefan

[squeak]

PF - I try to do that, but usually end up walking away feeling like I am a failure and/or totally inadequate... that I have two untrained "feral" mutts (as we call them). So, I guess I am asking how do I deal with how *I* feel???

[poodlefan]

PF - I try to do that, but usually end up walking away feeling like I am a failure and/or totally inadequate... that I have two untrained "feral" mutts (as we call them). So, I guess I am asking how do I deal with how *I* feel???

I'll give you the advice I give anyone dealing with frustration/feelings of failure.

Don't compare you and your dogs with other handlers and dogs. Look how far you've come. You didn't start with blank slates, you started with dogs that require some habits to be untrained - and that takes longer.

If you really feel like you need a booster, book a couple of private sessions with a really shit hot pro - and they are out there. Sometimes a bit of one on one training can really boost your confidence and success.

ETA: And remember that no one knows your dogs better than you.

Edited December 12, 2008 by poodlefan

[squeak]

Don't compare you and your dogs with other handlers and dogs. Look how far you've come. You didn't start with blank slates, you started with dogs that require some habits to be untrained - and that takes longer.

I've lost count of the number of times I have had to remind myself not to compare myself or my dogs to others - it is something that I really struggle with.

And, as much as I whinge and complain about our two mutts, I am exceptionally proud of what they have been able to learn. Guess I am just going through a rough patch at the moment.

Edited December 12, 2008 by squeak

[harper]

If you really feel like you need a booster, book a couple of private sessions with a really shit hot pro - and they are out there. Sometimes a bit of one on one training can really boost your confidence and success.

Totally agree with PF here for a few reasons.

My confidence increased so much from getting "a really shit hot pro".

You are given more 'tools' to work with by someone that really does know their stuff.

When anyone attempts to give you advice you can then say "Thankyou, but we have a program and are working under the guidence of a behaviourist so we are sticking with that".

I understand where you are coming from. I had so many people offering me advice (looking back, some was good but some bad and potentially damaging) and I was chopping and changing tactics which possibly made our situation worse and made me feel like a bad owner. As soon as I was working with a behaviourist we started getting great results and it was also good to have an automatic reply to people to minimise all the well meaning advice, without feeling rude.

[poodlefan]

Can I just add:

Find a dog training club whose training philosophies align with yours and join.

There is no better shoulder to cry on and voice to encourage as that of a fellow dog trainer who has walked the same path as you. Sometimes it helps to see people have success with dogs who have come from similar backgrounds and overcome the issues you confront.

[MonElite]

Can I just add:

Find a dog training club whose training philosophies align with yours and join.

There is no better shoulder to cry on and voice to encourage as that of a fellow dog trainer who has walked the same path as you. Sometimes it helps to see people have success with dogs who have come from similar backgrounds and overcome the issues you confront.

Aint that the truth

Been there done that squeak, I used to take it all in an worry, but no more. I found people who I like trainign with and if I dont, tahn I do my own thing and just use the rest of the class as a distraction to my own traning if I need it.

[Jigsaw]

Everyone's an expert aren't they?? You know your own dogs best, you know their strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else. And your mutts are gorgeous too btw! Go back and think where they were with their training six or so months ago! As people have said a one on one class or a small class with a great trainer is a real boost. You know what you're doing - I've seen you doing it!

[Bisart Dobes]

Nod - Smile - Nod Again - Mumble Something Inaudible and then walk away and enjoy your dogs.

1. You alone know your dogs better than anyone else.

2. Your 'dog' is the one who determines what their reward is - no-one else (and anyone who tells you otherwise is FOS).

3. It is about the journey with your dogs and your relationship with your dogs - passes and titles are just the end result of this.

The best 'advice' I have ever been given was from a guy who claimed to train dogs for the 'force' (his words not mine). He said the ONLY WAY to train a dog to have full focus in the heeling pattern was the velcro it to your leg and make it walk around with you for as long as possible everyday for a month. Well the proof is in the pudding I say - my girl got a 195 in novice that day & her third highest in trial and his dog failed its heeling pattern with a score that doesn't bear repeating.

If people want to give you advice then watch how their dogs work - if they work beautifully, do it with joy and are a great team to watch - then perhaps listen. If not - take it with a grain of salt.

Someone already said this but - have private lessons to help you (I do as every dog is different and they all respond to different things - refer to point 2.)

Most of all enjoy the journey,

Bernadette

Bisart Dobermanns

http://bisartdobermanns.homestead.com

[KitKat]

PF - I try to do that, but usually end up walking away feeling like I am a failure and/or totally inadequate... that I have two untrained "feral" mutts (as we call them). So, I guess I am asking how do I deal with how *I* feel???

I'll give you the advice I give anyone dealing with frustration/feelings of failure.

Don't compare you and your dogs with other handlers and dogs. Look how far you've come. You didn't start with blank slates, you started with dogs that require some habits to be untrained - and that takes longer.

If you really feel like you need a booster, book a couple of private sessions with a really shit hot pro - and they are out there. Sometimes a bit of one on one training can really boost your confidence and success.

ETA: And remember that no one knows your dogs better than you.

I second..third? that!!!

I'd been a 'pet/companion' only dog owner/trainer for a while and when i got Bronx as a pup i thought i was doing the right thign and started working with him as soon as i got him home...and he's pretty wonderful if i may say so myself! However when i was getting around to getting Sabre i was being told by my obedience instructors that i was too hard on Bronx by starting his training at 8 weeks and that i should let Sabre be a puppy...and not to push any manners/obedience on him until he was at least 12 months - which left me with 30kgs of ADD pooch to deal with at that stage! He now knows his stuff but his attention span is somewhat...fun.

Due to that nice lil lesson i'll thank people for their advice...but do what i feel is right, and works, with my dogs - and i'll continue to do that with any dog that joins the pack from here on in...lol. So be polite but do what you feel is right for your dogs, even if it means trying and disgarding techniques etc - some things work for some dogs, other things don't.

"What's the one thing that two trainers will agree on?? That the third trainer is wrong" :D

Edited December 12, 2008 by KitKat

[squeak]

Everyone's an expert aren't they?? You know your own dogs best, you know their strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else. And your mutts are gorgeous too btw! Go back and think where they were with their training six or so months ago! As people have said a one on one class or a small class with a great trainer is a real boost. You know what you're doing - I've seen you doing it!

Thanks for the compliments Jigsaw. I never claim to be a "great" trainer, but I don't think I am totally useless either. And yes, I feel that they have come a long way in 6 and 12 months. Took Stormy six months to learn how to sit - perhaps bad training, but I choose to believe it is a "breed" thing and that she was still learning how to learn. Murphy has come far, but for different reasons. He learnt how to sit in less than a week - he was more challenging to teach how to drop & stand, but got both of these in less than a month - he cracks me up now when he drops and he drops sooo quickly. His challenges have been more "environment" and people. This is a dog who wouldn't walk across our front wooden deck, wouldn't walk on tiled floors and the like - now try and stop him!!! Wasn't real keen on mean initially, but with a helpful, patient local shopkeeper and Stormy as his example, he is now very much a people person. And, he has recently learnt how to put a quoit on a pole. Not saying this to blow my own trumpet, but I *know* that they can both learn and be trained - it's just excitement levels and teaching them to have self-control in these situations. But, I know that they have progressed with this - before I wouldn't have had both of them on the lead together, but now I can usually manage, though it is still a work in progress.

[squeak]

Due to that nice lil lesson i'll thank people for their advice...but do what i feel is right, and works, with my dogs - and i'll continue to do that with any dog that joins the pack from here on in...lol. So be polite but do what you feel is right for your dogs, even if it means trying and disgarding techniques etc - some things work for some dogs, other things don't.

"What's the one thing that two trainers will agree on?? That the third trainer is wrong"

More than willing to try techniques - and try to be very open-minded about that. I guess I just don't take kindly to having advice rammed down my throat.

"What's the one thing that two trainers will agree on?? That the third trainer is wrong"

Too true.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

2. Your 'dog' is the one who determines what their reward is - no-one else (and anyone who tells you otherwise is FOS).

Yes exactly. Unfortunately sometimes the handler hasn't worked out that what they think the dog should find rewarding or punishing actually isn't but unless they're in my class, I keep my mouth shut. And there is a difference between "all dogs should tug as a reward" and "I think your dog may be finding over the top praise and enthusiastic thumps on the head aversive"

I don't mind unsolicited training advice if it is "mind if I make an observation?", wait for me to say "yes" and then provide advice or feedback. And if it's well timed and constructive. Advice like that is great, even if you disagree you stopped and thought about it again which is valuable. People who try and talk at you as you're going in the ring or clearly busy with something drive me batshit. And lecturers and pontificators - gawd. Say it once and move on!

And people who say "you need to show the dog who is boss" without giving concrete examples are not being helpful, they are just putting the person down. If the person knew how to be a good leader they'd already be doing it.

[poodlefan]

Too right Anita. Advice given in the manner of "have you thought about" or "one method you might try" or "I notice when you do X dog does Y" is a lot more easy to stomach that "with my OC I do x" or "you should..".

Don't get too hung up on breed Squeak and don't pay too much credence to breed specific advice. A good trainer can train any dog because they make no assumptions, they observe the dog in front of them and they have a lot of training tools in their tool box.

I'd say body language, timing and failure to encourage/reward enough are areas a lot of trainers can help you improve on. Some dogs can be drilled and others need to be motivated far more.

Have you read "So Your Dog's Not Lassie"?

[Erny]

Just something I'd like to add in here, something from my own observations and experience and just for the sake of adding some balance to this. Squeak - it's not that I'm challenging either what you have raised in your thread and I do agree that there are 'ways' of saying things and 'ways' of not saying things (as a trainer to a client). But there are people who I have known to have complained because they're out there in class but the trainer hasn't come over to them and given specific instruction in certain exercises when it might be fairly clear that they're not getting anywhere very efficiently with it.

When I have taken classes, I appreciate it if anyone comes up to me at the beginning and lets me know that they are doing their own 'thing' - otherwise I feel remiss if I'm not giving assistance or advice to them that might help them through whatever difficulties they might be having. Have you taken the time to speak to your instructor/s to let them know why you are there and that you know what you are doing and wish to do it your own way? And often in those circumstances there isn't a huge amount of time within class to dedicate to 'wordy' explanations due to needing to keep the whole of the class running, but just a tip to 'try this' or 'try that'. One-on-one sessions are of course a completely different kettle of fish and are a big advantage, because the dog and dog-owner can be regarded and worked with as individuals rather than as a group. And I have run (and run) 'specialty classes' which are designed to focus on one particular exercise - to help those who only need help to overcome an obstacle they might be struggling with. I find these limited number classes excellent for certain issues. But again, these are a far cry from what can be managed and what is congenial to class-run training.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Erny

[dee lee]

Squeak, my dog sounds like a combination of both your dogs!!

I can relate to how you feel.

I know people who always point out the bad things - like Evie jumping up, like you everytime a doggie person lets her we are back two steps. It can make me feel very discouraged.

But then I watch my dog lie quietly next to me if I go to a cafe, even obeying a stay (reluctantly but still...) when another dog walks past, and a stranger will comment on what a well behaved dog she is and then I feel good about her progress.

[Lablover]

1. Smile sweetly

2. Thank them for their input.

3. Sift through it to see if there's any good stuff there.

4. If there ain't, ignore it.

Training is always way easier as an observer than as a particpant. But every now and again, you'll pick up some gems.

Enjoy your posts.

My reply includes looking at every training opportunity and resultant criteria. Ranging from search and Rescue, Guide dogs for the disabled, field, retrieving, protection, sports etc and then marry it all up. Mind you at the end of studying them all, the KISS (Kiss it simple stupid) method may be best. Dogs do not lie, watch them closely. Trust what you see. Try to think like a dog.