Using Food As A Training Tool

[persephone]

Ok...

Apart from occasionally teaching "down"/Drop with a food lure.. I have never done it.I was never taught it, and , truthfully, don't feel like trundling around with a bag of food on my belt all the time

I am after stories of WHY you do it this way... advantages/disadvantages???

I'm of the old school..

sincere verbal and gentle physical praise as reward.. quiet calm voice, or whistle to communicate.. sometimes a leash/collar.

None of our working dogs are trained on leash.. apart from their initial meets with yarded sheep as youngsters.

They know they will get patted/cuddled for a job well done...and they get the satisfaction of using their abilities/instincts

None of my 'pet' dogs, or dogs I trained as Guides or Therapy dogs were ever trained using food...

I understand using Drive.. and am guessing this is why food is used..

but it seems such a hassle to buy/make treats/ have to carry them... blah blah .

Convince me Please? make me UNDERSTAND

Thanks..

[Jigsaw]

I'll jump in first and try and explain my understanding of using food or toys. Firstly it's about motivation, if you can find what motivates your dog to work for you then use it. You use verbal and physical praise. I use verbal (as well as food and toys)but not the physical, my dog is not a physical dog, in fact if I try to use my hand on her head or body she will move away from me while we're working. My dog is motivated by a food reward or a toy reward. She is obsessed with balls, toys. So for her the highest motivator for a job well done is the ball tossed! Progression is made from the initial lure (or bribe as some people call it), to a continuous schedule of reinforcement, then to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement and then successive approximations and proofing. You should not need to give your dog food rewards for all its life and if you do it may lead to extinction, you should not need to carry around food treats all the time. If we have successfully trained our dogs then when we ask our dogs to sit they should sit but we do not have to mark and reward, but we might choose to do so sometimes and this is what the dog should be working for that occasional jackpot.

Is that what you were looking for? Maybe someone else might be able to explain it better or differently or have another point of view!

Edited December 10, 2008 by Jigsaw

[Just Midol]

After seeing Steve I've realised that very few people train in drive using food.

The only time I'd use food is in drive, and if I didn't have enough usable prey. But I'm a beginner.

[poodlefan]

Persephone:

Apart from occasionally teaching "down"/Drop with a food lure.. I have never done it.I was never taught it, and , truthfully, don't feel like trundling around with a bag of food on my belt all the time

If you do it correctly, you don't need to be trundling around with a bag of food all the time. You fade the lure and then you make the reward intermittant so you don't do it all the time. You build consistent responses to your cues whether or not a reward is given.

The reason a lot of dog clubs (including mine) advocate food is that most dogs like it and will work for it and the worst a handler can do is make their dog gain weight.

If done correctly, its not bribery. Good trainers will use the reward they know their dogs value most. For one of mine that's definitely food but most of the others work better for toys.

Edited December 10, 2008 by poodlefan

[MAC]

Persephone.. personally i'm the same, i am not a huge fan of food traninig.. only because the dogs become food driven... and the last thing someone wants is a dog going off to do his work in protection and the offender shows him a treat it's happened....

i also train my puppies AND dogs without a leash OR collar... i do work them in prey drive.. but for basic obedience again i use a toy.. however i have also heard that the dog will become toy dependant.. last thing one wants a police dog going to get the offender and if thrown a ball will retrieve it... hmm i think it's what one finds most comfortable.. we are all told to do it this way or that way.. personally i say if it aint broke why fix it?? so if your method of training has worked for you then why change it?

i use a ball on my girl for a reward in a playful manner but not after she's done training with me her reward then is that she gets to play with one of the other dogs on their own for 10 minutes to run and do zoomies etc.... more so i use the ball when i come out to play with her and interact with her alone.. .. BUT this works best for me and this girl.. my other one is so ball driven that i have no choice but to use it in her training.. food works also but as long as she gets the ball at the end of it, I guess everyone is different AND i'm still learning too so i cannot say what is best for one person or another...

i understand if you want to understand the benefits or which way is better.. but hmm as for trying to change it.. why if you achieve the level of training with your method and it's working stick with it!

good topic will be interested to see what the PROS come up with!

[The Spotted Devil]

For me, it depends on the dog - my old ACD worked for just a look and a pat - I never used food (trained to CDX). My current Dally - it's very difficult to train him and maintain any form of focus without high value food rewards as a starting point. He is not particularly motivated by pats, toys or anything else. I also use 'life rewards' as a jackpot - a top session of heel work and he is allowed to run free and piss on everything in sight

[persephone]

a top session of heel work and he is allowed to run free and piss on everything in sight laugh.gif

males! easily pleased

Thankyou folks...

It is interesting, and now it does make more sense... looking forward to hearing more :D

[Kavik]

I find food comes in very handy when trying to shape behaviours, when I use a clicker. Teaching them to touch a target with nose or paws, there are a couple of methods for teaching eye contact for competition heeling etc, and I am teaching a 3 pole weave entry with a clicker and food. For things like this it is difficult to try to use something like a pat.

You also may want to reward the dog going away from you, in a different direction or not focussing on you. I am teaching Zoe a send away and she doesn't work well for toys, so I am using food. I am placing the food on a target on the ground and sending her to it and gradually moving the target further away. I am also giving her the send command and throwing food when she looks ahead, now up to throwing the food once she goes forward on command looking ahead. I want her to know the reward will come from forward and go and look that direction.

[persephone]

I am also giving her the send command and throwing food when she looks ahead, now up to throwing the food once she goes forward on command looking ahead. I want her to know the reward will come from forward and go and look that direction.

*nods*

[Guest Tess32]

Cos some dogs have low pack drive and don't really give a crap about a pat?

It's only a reward if the dog actually wants it, not if it's you that wants the dog to want it :D

[The Spotted Devil]

Tell me about it Pers :D

I should add, that just for fun last night, I did a recall with Ziggy straight through some dog biscuits scattered on the floor - lovely focus and presentation to front and didn't even look sideways at the food (which was his dinner). He was extremely chuffed when I released him to eat it though! I suppose that's how I like to train with food

ETA: Well said Tess32!

Edited December 10, 2008 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

Proofing stays by chucking food around the doggie is fun too!

[persephone]

It's only a reward if the dog actually wants it,

*nods*

Lucky all ours crave it then They often leave a meal... except hamlet ... but are always happy for attention.

[BigBen]

Well, I wouldn't work for just a pat on the back, I want something more valuable - for me it's money...

In the middle ages a lot of people worked for food and shelter alone, but I suppose we found better ways to encourage good workers.

[Joan of Arc]

I really cant add a great deal to what has already been stated however it certainly depends on which dog I am training. We have two litter sisters - one is highly food driven and goes balistic if she sees food at obedience or in the ring. So she works for the love of a pat and praise - but that gets her almost as excited.

Her sister on the other hand is a little more strong willed and I use food as a reward when she complies.

When I was trianing our older boy the training I went too was all Delta and that's food, food, food. But he was very quick to learn and eventually you withdraw the food and he works for a verbal praise. He is very obedient, rarely trains these days but if you gave him the 'drop' signal from a distance, he would comply and be happy with a 'bingo' verbal praise.

I guess I am trying to say I use it as a starter and slowly withdraw it, if they fall behind or get slack, you can re-introduce it a little to prompt them.

Does that make sense/

[huski]

If a dog has a higher food drive than prey drive I will happily use food. My male has a high prey drive but will not grab a toy from me, and his drive for food is VERY high, so whilst I could spend time developing his prey drive, food is a more affective training method for me to use with him.

My beagle is also food driven, but we are training with a tug at the moment, because she is also very prey driven.

Neither of my dogs would want to work just for a pat on the back! Neither have high enough pack drive for that to be affective. Why make it harder for yourself? Go with the drive that works best for your dog!

Edited December 10, 2008 by huski

[persephone]

Yep.. it all makes sense

[Vickie]

My dogs will & do all perform tricks & behaviours for praise alone, but I think a lot of that is their breed/(ing).

I would not consider offering them anything external such as food or toys on sheep, they would laugh at me I am sure.

For agility, I went through a period of 6 months a while ago where I only rewarded with praise & saw no decline in motivation nor any adverse effects. In fact the most motivated dogs in agility that I have ever seen, work solely for praise & will not take food or toys.

Now I choose to use toys to reward what I am asking for, basically to make up for my lack of skills as a dog trainer. Sometimes the behaviours I am teaching are quite complex & by using toys to reward I can make a very clear distinction between "yes, that is exactly what I wanted, here is your toy" and "no, that is not what I asked for, try again". I find this is harder to make black and white if I only rely on my tone.

As other have said, food or toys can also be very useful in teaching a behaviour that is independent of me.

It also means that my dogs will do agility for literally anyone as the basis of what they have learnt is not reliant on my personal relationship with them.

[B-Q]

I use food with Buster. I'm happy with it, he isn't really into praise, and not very interested in toys, especially outside the yard. I don't have a huge list of things I can use as a reward but I do sometimes use letting him get into the car as a reward because he loves the car more than life itself.

It took me a couple of years to get him confident enough to take a treat from me when we were outside the yard, now he will ocasioanlly chase a stick or play a short game of tug but he's a long way off being able to use it as a reward in training.

I also clicker trian him a lot because I've seen a massive improvment in him since I started and its much easier to click and throw him a small treat than play a game of tug.