The Beginning Of The End

[Steve]

The letter regarding Michael Burns' case is a good one to keep in mind, but the big thing is to show the community what the benefits of Schutzhund trained dogs are. This does not necessarily mean doing demonstrations but to highlight the achievements that these dogs and handlers have made by any means possible. (Use instances of intrastate, interstate and international achievements also).

I havent seen any nominations for dog owners whose dog is Schutzhund trained or for anyone training them or winning anything with them.

Nominations close 31.12.09. www.mdba.net.au

Julie

Edited December 15, 2008 by Steve

[Erny]

I havent seen any nominations for dog owners whose dog is Schutzhund trained or for anyone training them or winning anything with them.

Nominations close 31.12.09. www.mdba.net.au

Julie

You're "on the button" for that one, Julie. Good idea. I'm surprised the Sch groups haven't made use of it. Many of the dogs I've seen from the spectator lines who are Sch trained are the exemplary of obedience and good behaviour .

Edited December 16, 2008 by Erny

[Luccio]

julie

Ok then i can think about 12 to 15 dogs and handlers that have achieved a title and passed something this year under local and international judges. What do i need? to nominate them on your website, let me know and i will get on to it this weekend.[/b]

[wayrod]

O.K. I dont see any provision there for training facilities

but dont most training facilities technically double as boarding kennels? Unless you are just having obedience classes on your property a trainer that works from home etc is not technically an animal business since they do not have animals on premises in a commercial manner.

So if you are having dogs stay at your facility you would be considered a boarding kennel?

Yes but what if I want to run training sessions and train these dogs for a living and I dont want them to stay on my premises? Where is the provision for this in the law. That is a restriction of trade.

Under the Domestic (Feral) and Nuisance Animals Act you have to be a registered dog training establishment.

The Code of Practice for Dog Training Establishments can be found at:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nreninf.nsf/...1600220443?open

without trying to go off the subject to much, dog schools including puppy pre-schools technically would come under this Code of Practice, although they are not specifically mentioned in it. Reading all the legislation and it has been around in this form since 1994 and possibly beforehand in other dog acts any council could close down a dog training school if is not registered under the terms and conditions of the Act.

[Steve]

Go to our website www.mdba.net.au and on the left hand side you will see links to take you to the award pages .One is "nominate someone ".

If you get stuck give a yell.

[Luke W]

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Edited December 20, 2008 by left the building

[Nekhbet]

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Shutzhund dogs are not used for this, capable of this or trained in this manner.

[Luke W]

.

Edited December 20, 2008 by left the building

[Nekhbet]

you would think so although I'm not holding my breath on it, when the blinkers are on to some people the facts dont matter.

[Erny]

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Shutzhund dogs are not used for this, capable of this or trained in this manner.

Thanks for the clarification.

I wonder if the authorities would know the difference?

I expect that they do, given that for years they've been looking to stop the sport but as I understand it, couldn't do so due to the wording of previous regulation. That the wording has changed to specifically include the 'biting of anything worn' and that the Council are now pulling Sch into the legal lime light indicates to me that they knew exactly what the difference is.

[Nekhbet]

you would think the military and police departments would kick up a bit of a stink since they source their dogs from working kennels too. Anyone hitting them up, interstate and otherwise?

Erny whether they know or care ... I dont think so. I think to them a biting dog is a biting dog and they are all a liability, if they knew the difference they would see the sport for what it is - an asset and a place for people with large breeds to learn control and high end international level training.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Luccio]

Luke

Being able to see the difference between schutzhund and personal protection requires some knowledge, understanding and explanation. Do not take this wrongly and assume that they are very similar, what i am trying to say is that to a person who has no general knowledge dog training let alone on personal protection and schutzhund, just seeing the bite work part of it they can easily form their opinion and assume that the both are the same, unless the diference is correctly explained and shown. I thik that we all in the dog training world can agree that picking up training methods is an art form to it's self. That is why i think that if we can get knowledgable establishments,departments ,proffesional trainers out side shutzhund to back the sport it might help them in the court case

cheers

[Steve]

Luke

Being able to see the difference between schutzhund and personal protection requires some knowledge, understanding and explanation. Do not take this wrongly and assume that they are very similar, what i am trying to say is that to a person who has no general knowledge dog training let alone on personal protection and schutzhund, just seeing the bite work part of it they can easily form their opinion and assume that the both are the same, unless the diference is correctly explained and shown. I thik that we all in the dog training world can agree that picking up training methods is an art form to it's self. That is why i think that if we can get knowledgable establishments,departments ,proffesional trainers out side shutzhund to back the sport it might help them in the court case

cheers

Depends what the charges are. The courts dont care who supports the person charged only if the law exists and if its proven they broke it .The penalty may be lighter but if its guilty of breaking the law its guilty.

[Luke W]

.

Edited December 20, 2008 by left the building

[Luccio]

Luke

Being able to see the difference between schutzhund and personal protection requires some knowledge, understanding and explanation. Do not take this wrongly and assume that they are very similar, what i am trying to say is that to a person who has no general knowledge dog training let alone on personal protection and schutzhund, just seeing the bite work part of it they can easily form their opinion and assume that the both are the same, unless the diference is correctly explained and shown. I thik that we all in the dog training world can agree that picking up training methods is an art form to it's self. That is why i think that if we can get knowledgable establishments,departments ,proffesional trainers out side shutzhund to back the sport it might help them in the court case

cheers

Depends what the charges are. The courts dont care who supports the person charged only if the law exists and if its proven they broke it .The penalty may be lighter but if its guilty of breaking the law its guilty.

Understand what you are saying and agree this case would mainly be about the current law being broken, However if enough probable doubt is presented to show that the law is unjust maybe the judge would look at it in a different manner and if not we could still use the support for the long run in the getting the law changed for the sake of the sport and the breeds involved.

[Steve]

Luke

Being able to see the difference between schutzhund and personal protection requires some knowledge, understanding and explanation. Do not take this wrongly and assume that they are very similar, what i am trying to say is that to a person who has no general knowledge dog training let alone on personal protection and schutzhund, just seeing the bite work part of it they can easily form their opinion and assume that the both are the same, unless the diference is correctly explained and shown. I thik that we all in the dog training world can agree that picking up training methods is an art form to it's self. That is why i think that if we can get knowledgable establishments,departments ,proffesional trainers out side shutzhund to back the sport it might help them in the court case

cheers

Depends what the charges are. The courts dont care who supports the person charged only if the law exists and if its proven they broke it .The penalty may be lighter but if its guilty of breaking the law its guilty.

Understand what you are saying and agree this case would mainly be about the current law being broken, However if enough probable doubt is presented to show that the law is unjust maybe the judge would look at it in a different manner and if not we could still use the support for the long run in the getting the law changed for the sake of the sport and the breeds involved.

Yep I agree the injustice of it all will be great to gather support but I still think if they are proven guilty they will wear it regardless of whether the judge thinks they deserved it or not. Im still holding some comments until I know what the charges are.

[Luccio]

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Shutzhund dogs are not used for this, capable of this or trained in this manner.

Thanks for the clarification.

I wonder if the authorities would know the difference?

I expect that they do, given that for years they've been looking to stop the sport but as I understand it, couldn't do so due to the wording of previous regulation. That the wording has changed to specifically include the 'biting of anything worn' and that the Council are now pulling Sch into the legal lime light indicates to me that they knew exactly what the difference is.

They probably just don't see the difference.

Dog biting sleeve for sport = dog biting arm for protection = dog biting arm

Unfortunately.

That is what is frustrating!!!! It is just not about biting, it is about the control the handler has over the animal, the control the animal has over it's own desires, the ability for the animal to take instructions under pressure, the state of mind the animal is in (the drive). Like i said this is not easily seen/read by many.

[Luke W]

.

Edited December 20, 2008 by left the building

[Nekhbet]

That is what is frustrating!!!! It is just not about biting, it is about the control the handler has over the animal, the control the animal has over it's own desires, the ability for the animal to take instructions under pressure, the state of mind the animal is in (the drive). Like i said this is not easily seen/read by many.

no its not and its not willing to be embraced by many people either which has never worked in its favour. If our own kennel council cant see it for what it is what hope does the general public? Steve Austin showed us a fabulous video for the NDTF course - when he went to the Czech republic and they did a military dog demonstration in the middle of the street. Parents, children and government officials were all there watching these high class dogs work (not just sport, real working military class dogs) and take down assailants in full bite suits, even while firing a gun near the dog etc. It was incredible and everyone watched and cheered as the dogs worked, with no more then a simple barrier between them and the dogs. Why is it so acceptable in europe? Even a russian lady was telling me how her GSD was trained (pet only) in Schutzhund so it could be a fully trustworthy family pet. She remembers it doing sleeve work and obedience but she was never scared of it (actually she is more scared of the average pet dogs here in australia then the trained dogs in Russia) and finds it strange that no one here does it at all.

Many of these Sch/IPO dogs are also multi purpose, but how many people are willing to out themselves and their dogs here in victoria publicly now? Go look at Amandas website malinois.net.au to see how dogs can be multi purpose, achieve to a great standard and go own to protect and serve with our armed forces. Its Schutzhund that has helped improve the genetics and quality of animals in this country as well, given our services a source of working animals and genetics that would otherwise been out of reach due to import and time and financial constraints.

We under appreciate and now punish a valuable service and resource we have here in Australia.

[Luccio]

That is what is frustrating!!!! It is just not about biting, it is about the control the handler has over the animal, the control the animal has over it's own desires, the ability for the animal to take instructions under pressure, the state of mind the animal is in (the drive). Like i said this is not easily seen/read by many.

no its not and its not willing to be embraced by many people either which has never worked in its favour. If our own kennel council cant see it for what it is what hope does the general public? Steve Austin showed us a fabulous video for the NDTF course - when he went to the Czech republic and they did a military dog demonstration in the middle of the street. Parents, children and government officials were all there watching these high class dogs work (not just sport, real working military class dogs) and take down assailants in full bite suits, even while firing a gun near the dog etc. It was incredible and everyone watched and cheered as the dogs worked, with no more then a simple barrier between them and the dogs. Why is it so acceptable in europe? Even a russian lady was telling me how her GSD was trained (pet only) in Schutzhund so it could be a fully trustworthy family pet. She remembers it doing sleeve work and obedience but she was never scared of it (actually she is more scared of the average pet dogs here in australia then the trained dogs in Russia) and finds it strange that no one here does it at all.

Many of these Sch/IPO dogs are also multi purpose, but how many people are willing to out themselves and their dogs here in victoria publicly now? Go look at Amandas website malinois.net.au to see how dogs can be multi purpose, achieve to a great standard and go own to protect and serve with our armed forces. Its Schutzhund that has helped improve the genetics and quality of animals in this country as well, given our services a source of working animals and genetics that would otherwise been out of reach due to import and time and financial constraints.

We under appreciate and now punish a valuable service and resource we have here in Australia.

T

hat is what i mean if we could get people to understand it as they do in Europe, maybe then the sport can be enbraced here as well. What we have to realise is that in europe, once upon a time even before world war 1 and 2 they relied heavily on working dogs and threfore understand it through many generations on how it has benefited them from then to now. It is something that most of them have been brought up with.