The Beginning Of The End

[Vickie]

Just one more thought...and then I will stick to things I actually know something about ....

how different is schutzhund training to what dogs in the armed services do in terms of demonstration?

It just occurred to me that while one group is being persecuted, the other is invited as heroes to every major public picnic/event and respected & admired by the crowd (probably the same crowd in many cases who would support this persecution).

If the parallels are appropriate, it would be interesting to see any media coverage supported by the army/police etc.

[Just Midol]

Any police dog handlers out there competing in (or even just sympathetic toward) Schutzhund? ...they'd be great people to have onside

Yes, there are afaik.

What people also fail to realise is that those who work with dogs (mainly security) have to get our dogs from somewhere, if people can no longer compete in dogsport that basically means we'd have to import every dog we wish to work with, which would kill the entire working dog industry.

Vickie, the training is a touch different.

The sad thing is that most schuhtzhund and ipo trained dogs are probably better trained than most security dogs.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Kavik]

The early stages of training in SchH and service dogs is very similar, but later on there are more marked differences. Sport dogs are worked in prey drive and taught to bite the sleeve. Service dogs/security etc are worked first in prey drive and then when confident, some work in defence so that they can handle more pressure and stress. They are also taught to be 'civil' and target the man not the equipment.

I remember being scared when I met my first security trained dog doing NDTF. Later, through getting to know the people and dogs, I gained a lot of respect for what these people and dogs do. I love seeing the focus and enthusiasm in SchH dogs I have seen on video, at trials and training.

I think Nekhbet when talking about Flyball, is looking at the ramifications of this long term. If someone as high profile as Steve Austin can get a warning for playing tug with a dog during a demo, that speaks volumes about where this is going. All Flyball dogs that I have seen and a lot of agility dogs have a tug session at the end. If playing tug is targetted then many sports are at risk.

[Nekhbet]

I think Nekhbet when talking about Flyball, is looking at the ramifications of this long term. If someone as high profile as Steve Austin can get a warning for playing tug with a dog during a demo, that speaks volumes about where this is going. All Flyball dogs that I have seen and a lot of agility dogs have a tug session at the end. If playing tug is targetted then many sports are at risk.

Thats what I mean.

Schutzhund is not all bitework there is an obedience and tracking component that counts for just as much as the bitework. Flyball, agility, lure coursing, schutzhund its ALL based on the dogs prey drive. You play tug of war with your dog after flyball when the dogs hyped up well how is that different to the dog tugging a sleeve? Throw a bare arm in front of a Sch dog and it will look at you like 'huh, wheres my toy' just as any other sport dog would. I've seen dogs at flyball so hyped up one turned around and bit the handler on the knee. Hey dogs are dogs, accidents happen and as I said I have nothing against flyball or any dog sport I think they all have their place BUT from the lawmakers POV it could be another thing thats targeted since the dogs are playing tug and so hyped up. Remember what the media is like - see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear then plaster it from here to tomorrow. Thats how the pitbull died, thats how Schutzhund will die and thats how most dog related things will die in Australia.

Anita I dont have anything against PP. Each to their own, as long as it works for the dog. But where I live I am soaked in a big following of PP - and yes a couple of so called well respected trainers have basically told clients if the dog cant learn from their method then its just bad. Mention Schutzhund, security or working dogs and you think you had sprayed a vampire with holy water the amount of hissing and cursing that comes out. I'm sorry if I came across tarring every pos trainer with the same brush that was not my intention...

but look at where more people are going - shops are filled with equipment 'gentle this and that', check chains are 'cruel', prongs are mind shatteringly abusive and of course big working breeds are dangerous. My rottie and DDB passed the Delta Society Therapy Dog test and are now registered as therapy dogs, but I didnt appreciate being told during my training day that 'oh choker chains are nasty, cruel things and I would never touch one' from a person who has never trained dogs before. All I had to say is 'there is a time and place for everything' and the sour look I got was rediculous. Why such intolerance towards something in the dog world from a society that has so much clout?

As for security officers being able to have Sch dogs - do you know how much it is to become a security officer now? Vic government cocked that up right royally and made it a joke. As for having a Sch dog as a working dog, sorry it doesnt work like that. Sch dogs are sport dogs, not security dogs. I would be hard pressed to borrow someones Sch dog to go do a nights work out the front of a few clubs unless the dog was above and beyond just a sport dog but even then it lacks training. Also how does owning a security license make you a more responsible handler? There is no dog handlers component of your training course at all so all they really want you to do is fork out for the refresher course and your 3 year reg - bye bye $800 for nothing. Some guards out there are hard pressed to dress themselves let alone handle a dog (I was a guard for 3 years and I also did some K9 so I've seen some of Vic finest ) Schutzhund clubs did the responsible things and KEPT THE MEATHEADS OUT OF THE SPORT!!!! They were doing people a favour by not allowing macho wankers somewhere to bite train their dogs. This is why I'm angry, again the responsible people are the ones being attacked, the trained dogs are the ones being attacked and names will be dragged through the mud for nothing. Why should they suddenly stop the sport? What will they do with the dogs? Explain to the dog that suddenly its not going to do any more of its favourite game - some people have paid a lot of money for these dogs too and have plans for breeding, trialling etc why should they just stop everything because some ignorant pen pusher made a law that was barely advertised.

What is wrong with having clubs that are officially recognised and registered with the local council, officers come do a check every now and again to make sure everything's hunky dory (which southern cross definately were AND are even listed still on the City of Casey website) and leave it at that. Just like obedience, agility etc club

Its a shame, a damn shame but I know that only a minority in the dog world will probably raise their hand in support of John and Southern Cross. As usual the old 'its not my thing' principle will apply and until the wolf is on THEIR doorstep will they step up and cry out. I cried last night, I really sat at my computer and cried when I heard this. It stabbed me through the heart that everything I love in the dog world is being attacked and victimised.

Well to all those people who have never seen Schutzhund in action - now you probably never will. Hop on youtube or take an international flight because wave goodbye if the council has its way. This will also make us lose valuable genetics in this country in working dog circles if this passes, but again, I think the blinkers are on for quite a few people and I am saddened to think some others may even be glad its out.

has anyone on this discussion topic currently active in schutzhund?

has anyone on this current thread seen or followed a green dog trained from bh,sch1,sch2 and sch3???

sorry for all the questions, just curious

No one will answer anything like this on a forum so there is no point asking. Same as people who ask 'do you own a pitbull' on the forum and wonder why others dont reply. People risk their reputation, money and dogs life answering questions like these.

[MonElite]

how different is schutzhund training to what dogs in the armed services do in terms of demonstration?

Sch dogs are trained to OUT a lot better than police/security dogs. Think about it, sch dog is judged for precision and for obeying commands. Police dog is trained to capture a man and not let him get away.

Sch dogs have usually far better obedience.

Dont know about tracking but sch tracking is step tracking which is very precise.

[MonElite]

Actually Herr Rott, I hate the threads title, its too depressing and its actually indicating as to what is going to happen.

I think it should be changed to "lets do something to prevent ...."

Set the minds up upfront.

As a first step I think that the two sch organisations need to work together, and unless they unite there is not enough power in one or the other to fight this.

Edited December 10, 2008 by MonElite

[Kavik]

I'm sure a well trained security or police dog has a good OUT I would hope so anyway.

[MonElite]

voice comand over football field distance?

[Kavik]

I would think a police dog would have good control over a distance? Security dogs generally work close from what I've seen.

Certainly the two SchH orgs should cooperate with their sport in jeopardy.

[granny]

PF - You don't think it is about time that frivolous or fruitless laws are fought? Once Schutzhund is 'picked off' it will NEVER get back in again ..... at least I'm sure, not in my lifetime.

If you want to argue that these laws are frivolous and fruitless Erny then you have to play that ball, not the man (or woman).

Consider that your average community member (dog owner or not) will need to be convinced that training a dog to target a person (yes, its the sleeve but a person is wearing it) does not encourage such dogs to attack.

Now I have come to this thread late! But wonder how this would be seen under new Vic. Laws!

I was playing ball with my dog in our Off Lead Park when I noticed a lass playing TUG with her Standard Poodle. after a short while she tucked the Tug toy into her belt recalled the dog and before she got the lead on the dog the dog decided it wanted to play more Tug and grabbed the the Tug toy out of her belt! After all she was wearing the Tug on her belt so has this lass committed a breach of Vic Laws by teaching her dog to play tug?? This was in NSW. and as an onlooker I found it rather funny at the time. Now having read some of this thread

I have started to wonder!

[MonElite]

I would think a police dog would have good control over a distance?

The wouldnt have to out untill the handler gets to the criminal and the dog, would they?

Doesnt matter really whats the theory behind it, I speak to an ex military trainer on occasion and he says that the military dogs are not trained to out as well as sch dogs are.

From the horses mouth - I belive him.

[Guest kermet]

There is alot of reading there to catch up on so please forgive me if I cross over some points which may already have been stated.

I agree that directing the fire towards other sports is not the way to solve anything but at the same time people need to realise that even if you are not a schutzhund person, by allowing the government to act this way leaves other sports open to simillar problems.

Agility and fly ball are sports which can often create a highly excited dog wich may jump scratch etc and often prey drive is used as is tug of war for encouragement. A greyhound must be muzzled and kept under the restrictions of the dangerous dog act yet a dog of another breed which takes part in lure coursing does not. This is due to peoples perceptions. I am a strong believer that perception is reality. My point here is that an effort must be made to change the perception of dog sports.

There has been some contraversy regarding prey drive and tug of war being used as rewards when training with positive reinforcement, yet I am sure we have all seen the occasionall food trained dog lunge at an unexpecting hand in the hope of a reward. In no way do I believe that compulsion training is the answer, I am just saying that when done incorrectly many training methods can have negative affects.

Dogs not involved in sports are often dogs forgoten and left to thier own devices in the yard. These are often the dogs which lack the socialisation to be considered stable. A dog does not need to be trained to bite, this is a natural part of the deffence drive or prey drive, if the dog is left to its own discresion it may not posses the stabbility to recognize a truly dangerous situation as oppossed to the nieghbour sticking his head over to say G'day. Schutzhund and PROPER protection training teaches the dog to react only when called upon and exposes the dog to many situations were it is expected to display an enormous amount of self control.

Schutzhund is a sport designed to test the dogs working abilities as well as its stabillity. The government would benifet from the quality of dogs which are produced as a result of this sport. If you eliminate the sport you eliminate the need to produce these stable well balanced dogs and the police and army services are left with 2 options. Implement thier own breeding program which would have to consist of tests and trials simillar to that of schutzhund or resort to using dogs which have been bred for looks or soft temperment which would result in putting presure on these dogs to do things they just cant do, in turn producing unstabe neurotic dogs, not to mention health issues such as hip and elbow problems.

My two cents

Craig Murray

[SkySoaringMagpie]

My two cents

Craig Murray

I think the kind of information in your two cents is exactly the kind of information that should be presented to law makers.

[kateshep]

Vicky wrote

If the parallels are appropriate, it would be interesting to see any media coverage supported by the army/police etc.

Many descendents of Schutzhund titled imported working line german shepherds are being used in police/military. For a long time they did not have the quality of working lines as they have now in australia.

If you eliminate the sport you eliminate the need to produce these stable well balanced dogs and the police and army services are left with 2 options. Implement thier own breeding program which would have to consist of tests and trials simillar to that of schutzhund or resort to using dogs which have been bred for looks or soft temperment which would result in putting presure on these dogs to do things they just cant do, in turn producing unstabe neurotic dogs, not to mention health issues such as hip and elbow problems.

Some police agencies already have their own breeding programs, but who do they source their dogs from ? either from aussie breeders of in the case of RAAF I know they imported some of their own stock directly from top european Schutzhund lines. But they will need to continue sourcing dogs for diversity and they will have to continually go overseas if things continue the way they are ? They can temperament test their own dogs, some involved in security do not trial their breeding dogs but still test them for working ability. However they are all interlinked, many of their working dogs descend from Schutzhund lines.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Anita I dont have anything against PP. Each to their own, as long as it works for the dog. But where I live I am soaked in a big following of PP - and yes a couple of so called well respected trainers have basically told clients if the dog cant learn from their method then its just bad. Mention Schutzhund, security or working dogs and you think you had sprayed a vampire with holy water the amount of hissing and cursing that comes out. I'm sorry if I came across tarring every pos trainer with the same brush that was not my intention...

Thanks. I suppose I consider myself a positive training hard-head if such a thing is possible. I'm very keen on positive training being rigorously applied if that makes sense, and if it is rigorously applied and if trouble shooting is approached from the perspective of dealing with the dog you have in front of you then it's a great tool for my dogs.

With "bad dogs" I wonder if people aren't good at acknowledging that they have reached the limits of their experience - that's a human failing rather than a method failing.

I also think it's true that some dogs are so mentally compromised by bad breeding or abuse (like morons who give their dogs drugs and fry their brains) that training will fail to bring them up to basic quality of life standards and euthanasia and/or medication become the only options, but again that's not bad dogs, that's bad people.

[kateshep]

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

[Erny]

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

I don't, but it would be great to bring it up. Perhaps HR knows of it?

[arawnhaus]

There is alot of reading there to catch up on so please forgive me if I cross over some points which may already have been stated.

I agree that directing the fire towards other sports is not the way to solve anything but at the same time people need to realise that even if you are not a schutzhund person, by allowing the government to act this way leaves other sports open to simillar problems.

Agility and fly ball are sports which can often create a highly excited dog wich may jump scratch etc and often prey drive is used as is tug of war for encouragement. A greyhound must be muzzled and kept under the restrictions of the dangerous dog act yet a dog of another breed which takes part in lure coursing does not. This is due to peoples perceptions. I am a strong believer that perception is reality. My point here is that an effort must be made to change the perception of dog sports.

There has been some contraversy regarding prey drive and tug of war being used as rewards when training with positive reinforcement, yet I am sure we have all seen the occasionall food trained dog lunge at an unexpecting hand in the hope of a reward. In no way do I believe that compulsion training is the answer, I am just saying that when done incorrectly many training methods can have negative affects.

Dogs not involved in sports are often dogs forgoten and left to thier own devices in the yard. These are often the dogs which lack the socialisation to be considered stable. A dog does not need to be trained to bite, this is a natural part of the deffence drive or prey drive, if the dog is left to its own discresion it may not posses the stabbility to recognize a truly dangerous situation as oppossed to the nieghbour sticking his head over to say G'day. Schutzhund and PROPER protection training teaches the dog to react only when called upon and exposes the dog to many situations were it is expected to display an enormous amount of self control.

Schutzhund is a sport designed to test the dogs working abilities as well as its stabillity. The government would benifet from the quality of dogs which are produced as a result of this sport. If you eliminate the sport you eliminate the need to produce these stable well balanced dogs and the police and army services are left with 2 options. Implement thier own breeding program which would have to consist of tests and trials simillar to that of schutzhund or resort to using dogs which have been bred for looks or soft temperment which would result in putting presure on these dogs to do things they just cant do, in turn producing unstabe neurotic dogs, not to mention health issues such as hip and elbow problems.

My two cents

Craig Murray

Welcome to dogz CM, Great post.

[arawnhaus]

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

I could be wrong, however I believe this may have been the case that led to the amendments in the law to cover anything worn or attached to a person. I recall reading a similar comment from the magistrate regarding the increased training level making the dog more stable therefore not a dangerous dog.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Delkerabo

[Erny]

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

I could be wrong, however I believe this may have been the case that led to the amendments in the law to cover anything worn or attached to a person. I recall reading a similar comment from the magistrate regarding the increased training level making the dog more stable therefore not a dangerous dog.

So it was acknowledged that the training created a more stable dog, yet brought in laws so they could out-law it?

ETA: If anyone can find this 'report' it would be handy and quite probably useful

Edited December 11, 2008 by Erny