The Beginning Of The End

[oonga]

Does anyone know when the wording of the law was changed??

[Steve]

Does anyone know when the wording of the law was changed??

Last time Im aware of them doing a revamp of the animal laws was about 12 months ago. This was when they bought in legislation which can see a breeder gaoled for 2 years and or a 12000 fine ,They also made it a possible charge if you walked a docked dog and couldnt prove it was docked legally. When we were in fighting them I didnt notice anything about you guys being bounced [didnt know anything about you then] but I reckon thats when it happened.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Steve

[kateshep]

Nekhbet wrote:

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Are you saying schutzhund dogs are trained just only using prey drive ? If you are whilst this may be the case for some sport dogs( either because they have only ever been trained this way or genetically they can only work in prey drive) this is not what Schutzhund was originally intended to do as a character test. In protection it is supposed to test the dog's ability to withstand stress, and thus they have to be trained in defence, ( if they have the right genetics) and fight drive.

I'm sure you know this Nehkbet but many reading do not and from what you said may think it only tests prey drive. If that were the case then non-guarding breeds with high prey drive such as field line labradors, herding border collies would be equally good candidates for top schutzhund competition.

Alot of top working line german shepherd breeders look for stud dogs that do have the genetics to do this training, which shows the dogs have excellent nerves. If they can do that and have the bombproof nerves to handle it they can have the nerves to handle so many other situations. It is a trait many breeders want not just for protection but for any working scenairio such as SAR, narcotics detection and even just living with the family. As long as breeders keep looking for those qualities, the police,military will want to keep using the top schutzhund lines for their line of work and breeding programs.

[wayrod]

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Shutzhund dogs are not used for this, capable of this or trained in this manner.

Thanks for the clarification.

I wonder if the authorities would know the difference?

Printed below is an extract from the Introduction of the Code of Practice of Dog Training Establishments:

1. Introduction

This Code of Practice is made under the provisions of Section 59 of Division 4 of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Act 1994 (“the Act”).

The purpose of the Code is to specify the minimum standards of accommodation, management and care which are appropriate to the physical and behavioural needs of dogs being trained in dog training establishments.

The Code and its provisions are to be observed by all proprietors of dog training establishments, including those establishments that conduct training at the residence of a client, and by people who work in them. All dog training establishments must comply with State and Local Government legislation and permits.

Protection training is defined as training a dog to attack people or animals and includes the training of a dog to attack a human wearing padded protective clothing for any purpose including sport. All dogs entering dog training establishments must be identified and dogs that are undergoing protection training must be permanently identified by means of a microchip issued by the municipality in which the dog normally resides. The Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Act requires an owner to notify the appropriate municipality immediately attack training has commenced.

I see the protection training definition to be relevant, although I would be more concerned with:

All dog training establishments must comply with State and Local Government legislation and permits.

I see this sentence opens pandora's box as Local Government can place any restrictions they see fit using their ability to make Local Laws and more importantly oversee and approve or decline permit applications. I suppose there is always VCAT.

Anyway, this Code of Practice was last updated around September 2004.

Below is a link to:

Things You Should Know About Dog Training Establishments

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nrenfa.nsf/L...A2572B10008EED4

which gives a brief clarification of Business Registration.

Edited December 16, 2008 by wayrod

[Nekhbet]

kateshep I understand that shtuzhund is not only based on prey. It is a test of nerves, handling and stability as well. KNVP and ringsport are something that europeans embrace that is uncommon here but goes beyond Sch.

Alot of top working line german shepherd breeders look for stud dogs that do have the genetics to do this training, which shows the dogs have excellent nerves. If they can do that and have the bombproof nerves to handle it they can have the nerves to handle so many other situations. It is a trait many breeders want not just for protection but for any working scenairio such as SAR, narcotics detection and even just living with the family. As long as breeders keep looking for those qualities, the police,military will want to keep using the top schutzhund lines for their line of work and breeding programs.

very true. Service dogs without titles though are also seen in pedigrees, although I understand what you are saying. If it was simply a test of prey then they wouldnt get very far using it as a decider in the viability of a dog to breed from. I know of some Sch dogs that have gone on to become service dogs, and some which are more then happy to be sport dogs I've seen both types of training and there are differences in the during and after

wayrod ... isnt the legislation just a massive maze ... bit here, bit there try and piece it together if your brain doesnt explode from how open some of the legislation is.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Nekhbet

[wayrod]

wayrod ... isnt the legislation just a massive maze ... bit here, bit there try and piece it together if your brain doesnt explode from how open some of the legislation is.

Legislation is and will always be a maze. Isn't this how lawyers make their money!

Legislators write legislation when they believe there is a need for it. It is up to the enforcement officers to enact the legislation. Sometimes they get it right; sometimes they get it wrong. (Human interpretation-as with many things in life). If we don't like the legislation we can request for it to be changed (sometimes this may take some time to do).

We probably are lucky in some aspects that enforcement officers do not follow the legislation "verbatim" otherwise we may only have a few dog training schools out there.

Some good comments and opinions but we maybe somewhat digressing from the original post.

Any news from HR regarding charges/complaints laid.

[Just Midol]

protection training and Schutzhund are two separate things. A protection dog is an animal trained for real life situations and is not just a sport dog, its training goes above and beyond. They are trained with hidden sleeves, in buildings and yards at night to simulate finding, stalking and chasing down a criminal, and are using defense not just prey drive.

Shutzhund dogs are not used for this, capable of this or trained in this manner.

Thanks for the clarification.

I wonder if the authorities would know the difference?

I expect that they do, given that for years they've been looking to stop the sport but as I understand it, couldn't do so due to the wording of previous regulation. That the wording has changed to specifically include the 'biting of anything worn' and that the Council are now pulling Sch into the legal lime light indicates to me that they knew exactly what the difference is.

They probably just don't see the difference.

Dog biting sleeve for sport = dog biting arm for protection = dog biting arm

Unfortunately.

QLD recognises the difference, so at least one government has.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Hi all,

Thanks for your persistance in this thread.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the persons charged and as soon as I have my hands on that list I will bring everyone up to speed.

HR

[Kavik]

kateshep

In other countries Border Collies and Labradors as well as many other breeds can and have done Schutzhund and gained titles Australia only allows some breeds to compete.

[ruthless]

And American Pit Bulls

[kateshep]

kateshep

In other countries Border Collies and Labradors as well as many other breeds can and have done Schutzhund and gained titles Australia only allows some breeds to compete.

I have heard of it before and a JRT !! but if they have achieved ( B.C's and labs) the titles I would guess (?) they are not working using their defence drives only prey, which is not what Schutzhund was intended to do as a character test.

Edited December 17, 2008 by kateshep

[Just Midol]

What Schutzhund is doing, and what it was intended to do seem to be very different things.

[Nekhbet]

they are not working using their defence drives only prey, which is not what Schutzhund was intended to do as a character test

dog have prey drive but many do not have the skill or personality to be able to cope with all 3 disciplines to the required level. A dog requires a firm grip, a full mouth bite etc most herding breeds are not natural biters like this. Nip yes, but to teach a full mouth grip to something like a BC, then the revier, is just beyond many breeds instincts, personality and character.

There has been the occasional odd breed that has popped through, but hey whats the problem with that. If the little bugger can do it then let them. I think I saw a Daschund once attempting it, quite funny. Ambulls in the US are doing quite well, as a bandogs, cane corsos etc all of which are hunting/guarding breeds.

[arawnhaus]

What Schutzhund is doing, and what it was intended to do seem to be very different things.

What do you mean?

I know some folks do the Sch Ob, but don't participate in the Bitework,is this what you mean by that?

[Just Midol]

What Schutzhund is doing, and what it was intended to do seem to be very different things.

What do you mean?

I know some folks do the Sch Ob, but don't participate in the Bitework,is this what you mean by that?

Nah, I'm just saying from what I've read and observed that some people are ignoring what schuhtzhund was suppose to test, isn't it supposed to test a dogs working ability but from what I can gather many dogs (might not be a problem in aust, only in the us) can only compete on certain fields & under certain decoys.

Like I said, might not be a problem over here but from reading on the US forums it appears to be a problem there, and a lot of dogs who don't deserve titles are apparently getting them.

If someone just wants to do the Obedience and Tracking parts then more power to them, I fully support that - Craig (my trainer) reckons we can do both security patrol work and Schuhtzhund with Montu if i put in the work so I am hoping we can

[Nekhbet]

If someone just wants to do the Obedience and Tracking parts then more power to them, I fully support that - Craig (my

trainer) reckons we can do both security patrol work and Schuhtzhund with Montu if i put in the work so I am hoping we can

I think you can, I would have a different set of commands for 'work' and 'play'. You dont want the dog accidentally grabbing the decoy somewhere 'innapropriate'

as for dogs that can only do sch/ipo under certain conditions - bad conditioning and training on the handlers behalf. If you want a Sch dog it needs to be stable and follow its commands (as you would want your working sheppy) When i got my Malinois I took her EVERYWHERE and by everywhere I mean trains, escalators, lifts, city, country, beach, traffic, etc and even played games in the Melbourne CBD. Worked a real treat, she's happy to snap to attention whatever else is going on now

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I think Nekhbet when talking about Flyball, is looking at the ramifications of this long term. If someone as high profile as Steve Austin can get a warning for playing tug with a dog during a demo, that speaks volumes about where this is going. All Flyball dogs that I have seen and a lot of agility dogs have a tug session at the end. If playing tug is targetted then many sports are at risk.

Thats what I mean.

Schutzhund is not all bitework there is an obedience and tracking component that counts for just as much as the bitework. Flyball, agility, lure coursing, schutzhund its ALL based on the dogs prey drive. You play tug of war with your dog after flyball when the dogs hyped up well how is that different to the dog tugging a sleeve? Throw a bare arm in front of a Sch dog and it will look at you like 'huh, wheres my toy' just as any other sport dog would. I've seen dogs at flyball so hyped up one turned around and bit the handler on the knee. Hey dogs are dogs, accidents happen and as I said I have nothing against flyball or any dog sport I think they all have their place BUT from the lawmakers POV it could be another thing thats targeted since the dogs are playing tug and so hyped up. Remember what the media is like - see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear then plaster it from here to tomorrow. Thats how the pitbull died, thats how Schutzhund will die and thats how most dog related things will die in Australia.

Anita I dont have anything against PP. Each to their own, as long as it works for the dog. But where I live I am soaked in a big following of PP - and yes a couple of so called well respected trainers have basically told clients if the dog cant learn from their method then its just bad. Mention Schutzhund, security or working dogs and you think you had sprayed a vampire with holy water the amount of hissing and cursing that comes out. I'm sorry if I came across tarring every pos trainer with the same brush that was not my intention...

but look at where more people are going - shops are filled with equipment 'gentle this and that', check chains are 'cruel', prongs are mind shatteringly abusive and of course big working breeds are dangerous. My rottie and DDB passed the Delta Society Therapy Dog test and are now registered as therapy dogs, but I didnt appreciate being told during my training day that 'oh choker chains are nasty, cruel things and I would never touch one' from a person who has never trained dogs before. All I had to say is 'there is a time and place for everything' and the sour look I got was rediculous. Why such intolerance towards something in the dog world from a society that has so much clout?

As for security officers being able to have Sch dogs - do you know how much it is to become a security officer now? Vic government cocked that up right royally and made it a joke. As for having a Sch dog as a working dog, sorry it doesnt work like that. Sch dogs are sport dogs, not security dogs. I would be hard pressed to borrow someones Sch dog to go do a nights work out the front of a few clubs unless the dog was above and beyond just a sport dog but even then it lacks training. Also how does owning a security license make you a more responsible handler? There is no dog handlers component of your training course at all so all they really want you to do is fork out for the refresher course and your 3 year reg - bye bye $800 for nothing. Some guards out there are hard pressed to dress themselves let alone handle a dog (I was a guard for 3 years and I also did some K9 so I've seen some of Vic finest ) Schutzhund clubs did the responsible things and KEPT THE MEATHEADS OUT OF THE SPORT!!!! They were doing people a favour by not allowing macho wankers somewhere to bite train their dogs. This is why I'm angry, again the responsible people are the ones being attacked, the trained dogs are the ones being attacked and names will be dragged through the mud for nothing. Why should they suddenly stop the sport? What will they do with the dogs? Explain to the dog that suddenly its not going to do any more of its favourite game - some people have paid a lot of money for these dogs too and have plans for breeding, trialling etc why should they just stop everything because some ignorant pen pusher made a law that was barely advertised.

What is wrong with having clubs that are officially recognised and registered with the local council, officers come do a check every now and again to make sure everything's hunky dory (which southern cross definately were AND are even listed still on the City of Casey website) and leave it at that. Just like obedience, agility etc club

Its a shame, a damn shame but I know that only a minority in the dog world will probably raise their hand in support of John and Southern Cross. As usual the old 'its not my thing' principle will apply and until the wolf is on THEIR doorstep will they step up and cry out. I cried last night, I really sat at my computer and cried when I heard this. It stabbed me through the heart that everything I love in the dog world is being attacked and victimised.

Well to all those people who have never seen Schutzhund in action - now you probably never will. Hop on youtube or take an international flight because wave goodbye if the council has its way. This will also make us lose valuable genetics in this country in working dog circles if this passes, but again, I think the blinkers are on for quite a few people and I am saddened to think some others may even be glad its out.

has anyone on this discussion topic currently active in schutzhund?

has anyone on this current thread seen or followed a green dog trained from bh,sch1,sch2 and sch3???

sorry for all the questions, just curious

No one will answer anything like this on a forum so there is no point asking. Same as people who ask 'do you own a pitbull' on the forum and wonder why others dont reply. People risk their reputation, money and dogs life answering questions like these.

Good post. I cried as well. Schutzhund was the one sport I had aways wanted to do for so long. I'm obtaining a laekenois shortly and now I'll have a bundle of incredible potential on my hands who will never be able to fulfill that potential, and I, as a trainer will never be able to reach my goal. It all makes me sick to the stomach and so incredibly sad.

[Luccio]

very good post rhapsodical78, very touched on what you have said!!!!!

I was the one that posted the following

is anyone on this discussion topic currently active in schutzhund?

has anyone on this current thread seen or followed a green dog trained from bh,sch1,sch2 and sch3???

sorry for all the questions, just curious

Reason for this post was not to find out who was doing the sport so that they can be crucified, i just wanted to see how many on the thread at that time! were active in the sport to comment on it, i for one do not like commenting or judging on anything without fully understanding it in and out. As many people were putting their 2 cents worth in and just seeing the bite work part of it only and do not see the other aspects of the sport like you have mentioned.

I believe that if anyone gets the opportunity to see one of these special dogs trained from a green dog trained to a sch3 level or even a mere bh level you would understand how much work goes into it and how dedicated the handler and dog needs to be. Sorry if i came across like i was trying to bluff people with my questions but was only trying to make a point. I will stand up and say that i have been active in the sport for the last 6 years and that 99% of the people that i have met in that time would be the most responsible dog owners that i have ever met

cheers

Edited December 24, 2008 by dirty dog

[Echo]

I think Nekhbet when talking about Flyball, is looking at the ramifications of this long term. If someone as high profile as Steve Austin can get a warning for playing tug with a dog during a demo, that speaks volumes about where this is going. All Flyball dogs that I have seen and a lot of agility dogs have a tug session at the end. If playing tug is targetted then many sports are at risk.

The wording of this piece of legislation is very poor.

As it is now, it is an offence to train a dog to bite anything worn by, or attached to a person, effectively ruling out Sch. training.

This also means we cannot use any tug toy for play or reward. It follows then, that a vast majority of ANKC recognised Obedience Clubs and their members are using methods of training which are an offence, according to this legislation.

We cannot train our dogs to rush at or chase any animal. This means we are also guilty of an offence if we train our dogs in Herding. How can you train a dog to herd if it is not allowed to rush at or chase an animal?

Here we have Obedience, Flyball, Agility and Herding, all recognised and promoted by the ANKC and its state member bodies, all possibly affected by this legislation, if the authorities chose to persue it.

Even if you are not a Sch. enthusiast, the actions taken against the people from Southern Cross K9 should worry you.

No matter what your chosen sport, under the current wording of this legislation, there is nothing stopping the authorities from targetting you, or your dog club, if the chosen method of training is to use a tug as reward. Or if you train your dog in Herding.

Beurocrats and pen-pushers................they have a lot to answer for.

Julie

[Bisart Dobes]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. I have one of the breeds that IPO / Schutzhund was originally put together for as a 'fit for breeding' tool. In Germany the recognised breeds in this sport cannot achieve their champion status without a SchI Title. I thoroughly believe that this should have been made the case here in Australia and if it were our breed would be in a much better place at the present time.

I trained with John's club for some time and attained BH on our foundation bitch - only stopped progressing with her due to infighting in the club and due to VCA opponents in our breed ready to report me and get us wiped from all ANKC disciplines.

You may all bag the 'government' for taking the law to its extent in this degree but you all must realise that this club and these people find themselves in this position due to another 'opposition' club / person dobbing them in. They are proving themselves to be worse than the damn show scene.

UNTIL THE CANINE FRATERNITY IN AUSTRALIA GET OVER THEMSELVES, STOP THE DAMN INFIGHTING AND BACKSTABBING AND START WORKING TOGETHER TRUELY FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL DOGS, ALL BREEDS AND ALL SPORTS IN THIS COUNTRY THE ANIMAL LIBBERS WILL SLOWLY CARVE US, OUR BREEDS AND ALL OF OUR CHOSEN SPORTS UP INTO LITTLE PIECES. THEY ARE VERY PATIENT, VERY PERSISTENT AND EXTREMELY UNRELENTING IN THEIR PERSUIT OF THEIR GOALS. THEY WILL NOT STOP UNTIL THEY GET THEIR WAY - UNLESS WE FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS - AS ONE.

Invested in the future of our breed,

Bernadette

Bisart Dobermanns

http://bisartdobermanns.homestead.com