The Beginning Of The End

[Erny]

I'm thinking that it could be a good idea if we each arrange to have a nice chat with our Council member/s. I'd like to start at the top (eg. Mayor/Deputy Mayor) from the point of view of explaining/demonstrating the good that comes from Sch training with an even bigger focus on pointing out therefore that this current case and any potentially perceived future ones being a vast waste of rate-payers' money. Would anyone else be prepared to do likewise? You don't have to be a Schutzhund 'person' to do this, just a concerned dog owner who recognises the benefits of this form of sport/training, as am I.

This is, of course, dependent upon my assumption that it is the Council that have brought about the present charges being correct. HR - can you qualify this please? And do you think it would be a good idea (of course, the conversation MUST remain civil, polite and factual) or do you see it as a move which could possibly inflame the present situation?

Edited December 11, 2008 by Erny

[arawnhaus]

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

I could be wrong, however I believe this may have been the case that led to the amendments in the law to cover anything worn or attached to a person. I recall reading a similar comment from the magistrate regarding the increased training level making the dog more stable therefore not a dangerous dog.

So it was acknowledged that the training created a more stable dog, yet brought in laws so they could out-law it?

ETA: If anyone can find this 'report' it would be handy and quite probably useful

Found it, this is the open letter regarding Michael Burn's successful case against Casey Shire Council.

This is and open to all those interested in the truth and the betterment of of pure breed dogs.

TO Helen Furber

MR. DON BURKE of Burke's Backyard

Mr. JOHN LAWS of Radio Station 2 UE

DR. HUGH WIRTH Austn RSPCA President

Helen I do not know where you got your information from but, I can honestly tell you it is the biggest load of cods wallop I have ever heard.

It was not the RNSWCC that the AUS was looking affiliation it was the ANKC.

Point 1. There are only three stages to Schutzhund, they are Part A Tracking, Part B Obedience and Part C Character Assessment or Protection. There are three Levels, they are Schutzhund I, Schutzhund II and Schutzhund III.

The purpose of the sport is to ensure the natural breed characteristics are maintained and the the dog is of good calm nerves and will be controllable and act predictably in high stress situation. This is one of the reasons all European Search and rescue dog go through Schutzhund Training. This is not so that they can kill the person they find and have them for dinner. But ensure the dog is of good character before they commence their search and rescue training.

Most recently I personally challenged the City of Casey in Victoria who declared My male Rottweiler as a dangerous dog, not because he bite anyone but because he was being trained is this Internationally recognised sport.

I have included the five findings handed down in the Victorian Administrative Appeals Tribunal which clearly states there is no danger as a result of a dog being trained in the sport of Schutzhund and in fact there is less likely the dog would attack.

Australian United Schutzhund Clubs are very please to announce that the decision on the appeal lodged in the Administration appeals Tribunal of Victoria, against the declaration of Mr. Michael J Burns' male Rottweiler Dreistleigh Satchmoe (A) BH ZTP AD as a dangerous dog was set aside.

The presiding member Mr. D A Mattei in making his decision to set aside the declaration made the following findings.

1. " I find on the evidence before me that such attack is limited on the sleeve worn by the helper or agitator and does not ever or in any way extend to an attack on any other portion of his or her person, with the focus of the dog being on the hesian or padded sleeve."

2. "In my view the can be best described as sterile or simulated or hollow."

3. "I find further on the evidence there is no basis whatsoever for the suggestion which was raised at the hearing before me that there is a risk of "boilover" or that there is a "second command" whereby the dog is required to follow the attack on the sleeve by making a further or extended attack on another part or other parts of the person of the helper."

4. "I find on the evidence that, apart from the subject training attacks, the subject dog has never attacked or bittern a person and that such training has not rendered it more likely to do so but rather, if anything, less likely."

5. "I find that the subject training is far removed from the training undergone by guard or security dogs were the entirely different objective is to injure and where the helper wears a full body protective suit."

I think it is about time the pure breed dog people took a good look in there own backyard as there many people exploiting the dog for there own monetary gain and at the end of the day it is all us dog lovers that will suffer.

Dear Helen, can I give you some advise for the future, please go out find out the facts before you listen to people that have no real knowledge or experience in an activity which they don't understand and are scared of because it looks dangerous.

I have a lovely two year old daughter who plays with my dogs all three Rottweilers and if I thought there any danger in this activity I would stop today but the facts are that it is of true benefit to the animals as it provides an opportunity for them to live out their inter species related behaviors. (do you what they are?)

Just write down exactly what you to describe rugby to someone who absolutely nothing about it in a very technical term and you would be horrified, what it would appear to be.

Michael John Burns

Machtzucht Kennels

President

Australian United Schutzhund Clubs

[Erny]

Thank you, Delkerabo.

[Luke W]

Offence to train dogs to attack

28A. Offence to train dogs to attack

A person must not train a dog to attack, bite, rush at, chase or in any way

menace persons, animals or anything worn by persons, unless the dog is so

trained-

(a) in the course of conducting a domestic animal business on premises

that is registered under Part 4, if training of such a nature is

authorised under that registration; and

(b) that person-

(i) is conducting; or

(ii) is employed by a person who is conducting- a domestic animal business

on premises that is registered under Part 4. Penalty: 60 penalty units

or imprisonment for 3 months.

Would that cover hunting dogs as well ?

[JulesP]

Just a question on this - are the people that want to join vetted in any way for mental stability?????????

[Herr Rottweiler]

Just a question on this - are the people that want to join vetted in any way for mental stability?????????

Are you talking about Dogzonline or Schutzhund?

Erny I'm waiting for John McDoanld to get back to me so I can further answer on what the charges are.

Delkerabo, thanks for putting up the info from Michael Burns.

Craig, Good to see you in the conversation. Good coverage of points.

Can I just ask that people stick to the topic at hand rather than champion their cause. I know this upsets people and I'm pleased to see the responses and the efforts of people trying to help.

In the end we will need everyone because I really dont believe many people are looking beyond whats happening here. Dog people need to stick together!

Edited December 11, 2008 by Herr Rottweiler

[JulesP]

ho ho ho

[Nekhbet]

Jules Schutzhund is a sport, not training attack dogs. Getting a security license and buying a big mean dog is an easier way to go for the meatheads then something like Schutzhund which requires dedication and skill.

Do they test people for mental stability when they buy a dog in general? no. Forking out big $ for a working line dog (who the breeder will run through the ringer and question before they even consider giving you a pup) join and learn from a club (who will also run you through the ringer before you join and even after you have joined) is a hard yard. Fees are also fairly pricey for training, equiptment, at least once a week training and travelling. If your dog doesnt pass temp test you dont learn schutzhund - so its not as if a bunch of blokes get together on the weekend and set dogs on each other to create DDs, just like any other sport.

[arawnhaus]

Just a question on this - are the people that want to join vetted in any way for mental stability?????????

Are you talking about Dogzonline or Schutzhund?

Erny I'm waiting for John McDoanld to get back to me so I can further answer on what the charges are.

Delkerabo, thanks for putting up the info from Michael Burns.

Craig, Good to see you in the conversation. Good coverage of points.

Can I just ask that people stick to the topic at hand rather than champion their cause. I know this upsets people and I'm pleased to see the responses and the efforts of people trying to help.

In the end we will need everyone because I really dont believe many people are looking beyond whats happening here. Dog people need to stick together!

Good question, julesp is that dogzonline or Schutzhund?

No worries Erny& HR, good press is always welcome surrounding these subjects..

Amy

Edited December 12, 2008 by Delkerabo

[Just Midol]

how different is schutzhund training to what dogs in the armed services do in terms of demonstration?

Sch dogs are trained to OUT a lot better than police/security dogs. Think about it, sch dog is judged for precision and for obeying commands. Police dog is trained to capture a man and not let him get away.

Sch dogs have usually far better obedience.

Dont know about tracking but sch tracking is step tracking which is very precise.

I disagree with that.

A good police of security dog should have an out, in security, if your dog doesn't out then it's as good as dead. We don't have protection like police dogs do.

As for security officers being able to have Sch dogs - do you know how much it is to become a security officer now? Vic government cocked that up right royally and made it a joke. As for having a Sch dog as a working dog, sorry it doesnt work like that. Sch dogs are sport dogs, not security dogs. I would be hard pressed to borrow someones Sch dog to go do a nights work out the front of a few clubs unless the dog was above and beyond just a sport dog but even then it lacks training. Also how does owning a security license make you a more responsible handler? There is no dog handlers component of your training course at all so all they really want you to do is fork out for the refresher course and your 3 year reg - bye bye $800 for nothing. Some guards out there are hard pressed to dress themselves let alone handle a dog (I was a guard for 3 years and I also did some K9 so I've seen some of Vic finest rolleyes.gif ) Schutzhund clubs did the responsible things and KEPT THE MEATHEADS OUT OF THE SPORT!!!! They were doing people a favour by not allowing macho wankers somewhere to bite train their dogs. This is why I'm angry, again the responsible people are the ones being attacked, the trained dogs are the ones being attacked and names will be dragged through the mud for nothing. Why should they suddenly stop the sport? What will they do with the dogs? Explain to the dog that suddenly its not going to do any more of its favourite game - some people have paid a lot of money for these dogs too and have plans for breeding, trialling etc why should they just stop everything because some ignorant pen pusher made a law that was barely advertised.

QLD has a dog handling cert. It's ~$1700-1800 for the dog handling license (inc normal guarding) for 3 years.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Lord Midol

[JulesP]

Interesting way to gather doggie people together. Bye bye

[Erny]

Interesting way to gather doggie people together. Bye bye

JulesP .... - what part of what's been said has upset you?

[Herr Rottweiler]

Interesting way to gather doggie people together. Bye bye

JulesP .... - what part of what's been said has upset you?

Good question Erny?

If it was the quip about the stability of people then I feel that you have looked beyond the joke and taken something entirely different onboard which is somewhat over sensitive.

[Luccio]

Hello all, in light to the current battle that the dog sport fraternity is facing in Victoria, I believe that apart from the financial support that they are asking for, that is not going to be enough to for the battle that we face at hand. I fully agree that financial support for the case is a great idea which I have and will back.

The other thing that needs to be done here is that if others in the proffesional dog community can show their support to the dog sport fraternity it would possibly go a long way in the court case. What I am looking at doing is getting a support letter/petition set up for the likes of professional dog trainers, clubs, associations, etc outside the dog sport fraternity (all Australian states). If we could show that others in the dog industry support and value the sport it would benefit the dog sport fraternity immensely and will hopefully add a few more arrows to their bow.

Apart from this forum I have also been visiting another one which is more dedicated to the working dog community and this topic of the dog sport’s battle is also being discussed and like this forum is getting a lot of support from others in the dog world. So the way I see it why not harness all this positive support and make it usable where it would count immediately at the court case.

I will be meeting with a few people in the dog sport world to get some help to draft a letter/petition up, so that it would hold up in a court of law and for the case at hand. However any ideas and help would be appreciated.

In the mean time those who are willing to support this or know any professionals, clubs, industries, departments that are willing to put pen to paper and show their support, please pm me so i can foward my email address. I will collect all contact details and when the letter/petition is ready I will then send to all.

p.s- not being rude but only interested in people who are willing to help, have read the forum thoroughly and have taken into account the comments people have made either against or for the sport.

Cheers hope to hear from you soon

[Erny]

Dirty Dog ..... I have recently had experience with the ways of "Petitions" here in Victoria. If you'd like to contact me (my phone number can be found on my website - link to which is at the foot of this post) I'm happy to share what info I can in that respect, although most of it I've written here anyway. Unfortunately Victoria is way behind the times as far as petition process is concerned and they cannot be done electronically. They must be original signatures on paper. This means petition sheets need to be either handed to you or posted to you by 'snail mail' .

What I did was (with the help of a couple of more computer savvy people than I) prepared the format for the petition. I then created a blog-spot and linked the petition format sheet to it. Then sent the link around. People could access it by clicking the link and then printing out the petition sheet. They then had the petition sheet signed and posted the original by snail-mail to a nominated address. I did similar for 'standard' type letters that people could print out and post to the relevant authority/persons.

Here's a link though, to the "Rules of Petitions" for Victoria. Only Victorian residents are able to sign.

The link I've given is for "Legislative Assembly". If the Petition sheets are addressed to "Legislative Assembly" then only a 'Member of the Legislative Assembly' can table it at Parliament for you. So you'd need to find out if you have someone who is a MLA before you do this. The alternative is for the Petition sheet to be addressed to "Legislative Council". A Member of Legislative Council (MLC) can table that at Parliament for you.

I'm not sure which is the better, or whether there's any difference. I know that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when I was trying to get a petition tabled. Whilst I was originally informed any MP could lodge it, when it came to the crunch, I got the right royal run-around.

There's a guy at Parliament who is the person who looks after the petitions at Legislative Assembly and I got to speak to him by telephone. He was extremely helpful and fantastic to talk with.

Fact Sheet 8 - Legislative Assembly Parliament of Victoria

or this one

Information Sheet on Petitions

Edited December 14, 2008 by Erny

[TrinaJ]

I know of one club that is helping financially and I am sure its members would be willing to sign the petition (a question to an interested party of whether a petition was being prepared was asked at a recent meeting, no petition at this stage was underway). This club is also organising an event to help raise more funds (of which I have been given the task of doing).

I wonder if people actually realise that using a tug-toy with your dog in Victoria is deemed illegal and the dog 'could' be classified as being a dangerous dog under this stupid legislation and therefore have to be muzzled.

The reality of this case is that if the charges stick and these people are prosocuted eventally we 'could' see the ban of imported dogs into Australia which would be a sad day indeed for our breeds. Dogs who are here that are SchH titled could be castrated and forced to wear a muzzle (this was discussed at the meeting).

I enjoy playing tug with my dog, it is a reward and she gets a lot of enjoyment out of it. Does this make her dangerous, no! A lack of training, stupid owners and no socialisation makes a dog dangerous. I have found that SchH trained dogs are more stable in temprement than those who are not.

I would be happy to pass on a petition for signing.

Trina

Edited December 14, 2008 by TrinaJ

[Shinners Regal]

Hi there everyone, i have never made a post before, but love to read the info on threads and feel this is one subject i should comment on, as a strong supporter of IPO dogsport, i believe we all need to speak out and help this cause as dog lovers and breed enthusiasts....

I believe the petitions are a great help along with threads like this to create public awarenes, i believe that the financil support to aid the Australia United sport dog club to fight the cause in the courts is even more help...you can contact them on the net http://www.sportdogaustralia.com .....fighting this will cost the club such a large amount of money and time and i believe if we all support financially they will be able to do a great job of keeping the sport strong in Ausralia...I have made my pledge!!!!

[wayrod]

Without the information of charges we can all make plenty of assumptions. Some correct and some not so correct.

I find it is always better to know the complete facts before going off half-cocked.

The letter regarding Michael Burns' case is a good one to keep in mind, but the big thing is to show the community what the benefits of Schutzhund trained dogs are. This does not necessarily mean doing demonstrations but to highlight the achievements that these dogs and handlers have made by any means possible. (Use instances of intrastate, interstate and international achievements also).

John McDonald may be worth speaking with some of the gundog fraternity and see what they have done to change their image of being "gun totting cowboys" sending dogs out after harmless game. Use this information to your advantage.

Focus on and highlight the achievements, afterall the prosecution will be out there wanting to project an image of fear for the community at large. Portray a different image.

[Shinners Regal]

wayrod i totally agree with you...as to showing the public the benifits of the trainings these clubs and the disapline supply, i also believe that the wider public need to be also better informed as to the levels of teaching that the clubs provide to new trainers and dog owners...

I have been introduced to brilliant teachers and directed to aswsom seminars on drive building and motivation and clicker training through the qld schutzhund and dogsport clubs and i as a newby to it all was amazed at how little it was promoted i had not even heard of the sport in general through all my years as a pet owner...

The level of committment that the trainers put into members to help train them to train their dogs is brilliant and so honourable in my mind and this should also be shown to the public...all obedience based clubs should be commended for the education that they offer as a service to the community...with all that said the integrity of these clubs i can not rate high enough as they always focas on building a dogs disapline and understanding of obedience well before a dog is ever allowed to progress to a sleeve....

The clubs spend thousands of hours training trainers and dogs, skills in obedience and tracking that goes unspoken about this i think needs to be a big focas aswell....it is truely breathtaking to watch some of these dogs....to truely understand how well trained these animals are people need to also know IPO is not just about protection but a partnership in a game a sport of obedience.

I hope this is the kind of image people see from IPO dogsport and Schutzhund clubs....

[Luccio]

thanks wayrod, will definately be looking into some of your ideas, cheers