The Beginning Of The End

[Erny]

What a pack of bloody nancys. Puppy farmers are given a pat on the back but people who love their dogs and train them to an international standard are dragged through the courts

Sadly, this seems to be the way of it Nekhbet .

What the hell is wrong with people these days.

I don't know. What I do know is that we dog people need to begin to stand up and be counted without division (not duck and leave it to the next person as frequently occurs) - because it is "division" that has been relied upon by those factions who seek to bring in more and more binding, suffocating and nonsense laws. Get the minority - because it is easier. One group by one group, there will always be a 'minority' and they will be targeted singularly - and none from the 'other' groups stand up to help because it "doesn't affect them". We need to be calm. But we need to be assertive. And not quit, roll-over and play dead.

As for the OP and the impending Court Case - assuming it only relates to the technicality of the law - what a waste of Tax Payers' money. YOUR money :D: . They'd do so much better by either doing something useful in the name of dog-welfare and community interest. Such as assisting the community with water saving devices. There'd be quite a few of those they could deliver out for free and be better money spent than on some pithy Court Case to dissolve a training sport which to my knowledge has served to hurt no-one - quite conversely, has probably served to help.

Similar to BSL.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Erny

[Just Midol]

The thing I find odd is the legislation makes provisions for security trained dogs, but there are no standards for sec trained dogs.

[Erny]

What a pack of bloody nancys. Puppy farmers are given a pat on the back but people who love their dogs and train them to an international standard are dragged through the courts

Sadly, this seems to be the way of it Nekhbet .

What the hell is wrong with people these days.

I don't know. What I do know is that we dog people need to begin to stand up and be counted without division - because it is "division" that has been relied upon by those factions who seek to bring in more and more binding laws. Get the minority - because it is easier. One group by one group, there will always be a 'minority' and they will be targeted singularly - and none from the 'other' groups stand up to help because it "doesn't affect them".

Similar to BSL :D:. How has THAT helped in reducing bite stats (which was the hypothesis of their reasoning to bring it in in the first place)?

[Nekhbet]

The thing I find odd is the legislation makes provisions for security trained dogs, but there are no standards for sec trained dogs.

not here in victoria, sec dogs are still DD according to legislation.

Its all this purely positive rubbish. Its taken things too far. Too many people have BS'd about how pp is the 'one size fits all training' and how any dog that doesnt fit is just a bad dog. Many vets wouldnt know dog behavior if you beat them with the books about them and many are quick to point out 'bad dogs'. Yet they want owners to lock up their dogs until over 16 weeks of age and then expect them to cope with the world being hideously undersocialised during critical period Why are we not banning flyball? It teaches a dog to madly chase an object and many owners play tug of war with the dogs afterwards. Its not nearly as controlled as Schutzhund why are flyball clubs not being persecuted??

Its bizarro world. Its rediculous and I am standing up, putting my name to the fight to save Schutzhund. HR is right, we let this happen kiss our working breeds goodbye because thats the next step. The GSDCV should stand up, the belgian shepherd club should stand up, the dobermann club should stand up, all breed mastiff club, rottweiler club, ... fight for the rights of dogs to be dogs and people to train their dogs. Owners of Giant Schnauzers, Bouviers, BRTs, DDBs, cane corsos, bandogs, ambulls, etc stand up and say 'no we will not be persecuted, we will not be next in line to lose our dogs and rights". You are right Erny, power comes from unity and numbers. You dont have to love schutzhund to see where this will go to next and who will lose in the next sh*t fight.

This is where your dog rego fees are going :D rangers wont pick up stray dogs or stop my neighbour having 5 little dogs in a unit yet they waste money on this public spectacle

Edited December 10, 2008 by Nekhbet

[RottnBullies]

The GSDC will not support schutzhund. Most GSDs could not even pass the temp test let alone gain IPO/SCH3 these days.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that

The stink is being kicked up because the IPO community just realised what happened.

Not quite, there are some very dedicated members of IPO community that have been working endlessly for some time now, towards achieving some very important goals, and in gaining the recognition It deserves amongst other things. I think certain groups don't wish this to happen which makes the task a whole lot harder

[Nekhbet]

yes well what do we expect when 'doggy freestyle' is accepted as a recognised sport over schutzhund

we need to wake up ... fast.

[Luke W]

yes well what do we expect when 'doggy freestyle' is accepted as a recognised sport over schutzhund

we need to wake up ... fast.

You've just put offside another group of dog enthusiasts :D

To digress...

Any police dog handlers out there competing in (or even just sympathetic toward) Schutzhund? ...they'd be great people to have onside

[Nekhbet]

You've just put offside another group of dog enthusiasts

what ... the ANKC wont recognise an old sport over something new and more 'warm and fuzzy'. Shows how out of touch the decision makers are. I have nothing against freestyle its an excellent persuit for so many breeds and quite a skill. But Schutzhund has a place as much as freestyle does, in fact more so since it encourages responsible ownership and control of large working breeds.

[Luccio]

has anyone on this discussion topic currently active in schutzhund?

has anyone on this current thread seen or followed a green dog trained from bh,sch1,sch2 and sch3???

sorry for all the questions, just curious

[The Spotted Devil]

I've seen working RAAF dogs give a demonstration in East Timor (it was pissing with rain and we were bored :D ) - fortunately I had a video camera

I've also seen what I imagine would count as 'underground' bite training work - it was interesting to observe but certainly didn't do much for the reputation of professionals.

I would be very interested in seeing a true Schutzhund training session And I DO work in animal welfare, so don't paint us all with the same brush please

[Jessca]

I've seen working RAAF dogs give a demonstration in East Timor (it was pissing with rain and we were bored :D ) - fortunately I had a video camera

I've also seen what I imagine would count as 'underground' bite training work - it was interesting to observe but certainly didn't do much for the reputation of professionals.

I would be very interested in seeing a true Schutzhund training session And I DO work in animal welfare, so don't paint us all with the same brush please

most dog sports, if done correctly, are all done in prey drive. its all one big game to them. and if they are a true 'sport' dog (not a sec or pp dog) the moment you take the sleeve away the dogs wouldn't have a clue what you are asking of them(in most cases). olden day sports were a lot harsher, but nowadays people have seen how much better a dog works when its happy, and excited. which is exactly what the sport is about, your dog showing its drive, which is mainly prey/play drive.

now please anyone correct me if you think i am wrong, i am in no way an expert on sports, and am only fairly new to it.

ETA- this was all related to you saying you'd be interested in seeing a true sch training, thats what its like. AMAZING, i havn't seen a training session in person yet, but i have watched many vids of friends and clubs doing it. its very impresive. Especially a schH 111 dog!!

Edited December 10, 2008 by Jessca

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks Jessca - it's probably the instructors and the way they train the handlers that is of most interest to me, not only the Schutzhund, so the videos are probably not ideal. It's the handler on the end of the lead that makes or breaks the dog, which is why I was so unimpressed with the 'underground' version I guess.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Its all this purely positive rubbish. Its taken things too far. Too many people have BS'd about how pp is the 'one size fits all training' and how any dog that doesnt fit is just a bad dog.

Steady on. Who has ever said that dogs that don't fit PP are bad dogs? Can you quote me a PP trainer who has said that there are bad dogs? Better, can you quote enough leaders in the field for it to be representative of PP trainers? My bet is you'll find a lot of people saying there are people with poor training skills not doing it well.

I admit I also did a double take when I saw doggie dancing had made it into ANKC recognition but the long established lure coursing events in QLD are still not ANKC recognised. I intend to ask some ANKC people what the story is, but I suspect it's less to do with conspiracy theories and more to do with the capacity and willingness of people to do some bureaucratic knife fighting for their sport.

This forum particularly has a very poor attitude to positive training. It is not positive training that is at fault here, it is a society that is overly litigious and lacking in any real sense of personal responsibility. It's "thereoughtabealaw" people and the lazy policy makers and politicians who listen to them. And let's be honest, few people have not engaged in that kind of thinking at some point or another. I mean, I'd like to DNA test dog shit and force people who don't pick up to clean shelter kennels so there's a little dog nazi in most of us. The key is keeping it under control and showing other people alternatives to slapping yet another law on the books.

Poodlefan is right, dog people have to keep their eyes on the daily lists of their state parliament and local councils and make productive representations. If the law has been passed, it's smart if people cop to having broken a law, while being careful to impress the beak with their mature demeanor and good sense so that the beak goes lightly on them and if you're lucky, sticks it to the lawmakers for wasting the courts time with it. We are engaged in a PR war here, and don't have the luxury of being crazy dog people, nor do we have the luxury of publicly bitching at other people engaged in pure breed dog sport.

Perhaps one thing that could be done is for some generous legislation lawyer or public servant to compile an ongoing list of matters before Parliaments and Councils, and Inquiries together with information on who to write to to express an opinion.

[kamukeli]

I dont understand whats going on.....but in the rest of the world you cannot breed you working dog without first getting a minimum of Sch1 title.It is a temprement test or character assessment for breeding suitability and if you do not qualify you cannot register your litters.

Maybe this is the reason they are trying to avoid it?

[MonElite]

has anyone on this discussion topic currently active in schutzhund?

Do you think that if anyone is active they will admit it here? in the light of what is going on atm??

[poodlefan]

Nekbet:

It teaches a dog to madly chase an object and many owners play tug of war with the dogs afterwards. Its not nearly as controlled as Schutzhund why are flyball clubs not being persecuted??

Flyball dogs don't chase anything.

I expect that flyballers are not being persecuted because they don't encourage their dogs to "attack" people. Rest assured that THAT is the perception that would have motivated this.

Once again, trying to drag other targets into the firing line is NOT the way to encourage support here.

Edited December 10, 2008 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

The dog world can be so divisive- and nothing will be achieved with all the in fighting occurring in place of a cohesive effort. Yes the legislation is unjust but it comes about through ignorance and lack of understanding- not because of positive trainers or those who compete in other disciplines. Comparing other sports just brings them into play and its not relevant if they are not targetted.

[Erny]

I agree that the stance should NOT to be that one dog-faction or another is to 'blame'. That only serves to alienate rather than to unite and the former is the last thing that any of us need. I think some of the 'cause' for the laws we have is pressure on the Government and certain organisations to be seen to be serving their community. The tough part is that it costs a lot of money especially in terms of man power when it comes to policing the real culprits of irresponsible dog ownership and cruelty, and so the 'soft targets' are sought after because they are 'do-able'.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Erny

[Vickie]

I wonder if some sort of media campaign could help to raise public awareness? One of those current affairs shows or something like that? A chance to tell the story and educate the public? Surely, it is quite a topical thing for them to be interested in covering at the moment.

I only have 3 experiences of schutzhund trained dogs in my whole life. Without those experiences, I would have no reason to seek education & could possibly feel like the ignorant majority of people do. Those 3 dogs and their owners raised my awareness & earnt my respect. Saying that, my general impression has always been that it is kind of a secretive activity, I can't really explain why but it always seems cloak & dagger type of stuff.

Don't flame me, I know very little about it, but I can certainly understand an uninformed public perception.

[Erny]

I wonder if some sort of media campaign could help to raise public awareness? One of those current affairs shows or something like that? A chance to tell the story and educate the public? Surely, it is quite a topical thing for them to be interested in covering at the moment.

I have thought similarly today, Vickie. Apart from demonstrating in some way the merits of the training (and the discipline that is required by both dog AND owner), also demonstrating what a waste of tax-payers' good money going after this group is.

I only have 3 experiences of schutzhund trained dogs in my whole life. Without those experiences, I would have no reason to seek education & could possibly feel like the ignorant majority of people do. Those 3 dogs and their owners raised my awareness & earnt my respect. Saying that, my general impression has always been that it is kind of a secretive activity, I can't really explain why but it always seems cloak & dagger type of stuff.

Schutzhund sport has been the focal attention/target of the authorities for a long, long time now. It is as though they have been waiting for the day until they could evolve the laws sufficiently to be able to 'get' them. That's just my impression. But even if I am only part way correct, that would probably be why you get the feeling of 'secrecy' surrounding these Club sports. My understanding of something in more recent times was that some anonymous person took photo's of the club training one night and reported them to Council (even though the Club had been training on those grounds for something akin to 20 years). Stuff like that would make it difficult to trust anyone.

Don't flame me, I know very little about it, but I can certainly understand an uninformed public perception.

Made worse when you know that at least one of the representatives of one of the 'authorities' says (in conspiritual (sp?) undertones) "can you believe there's a group out there who teaches their dogs to ATTACK !!!!!" When the members within those authorities don't understand what is really occurring and the good that the discipline those dogs go through can and does have, are the same as the ones who are out to 'get' the group and are the ones who get to speak to an audience it's easy to see how MIS-informed public perception can be.