The Beginning Of The End

[Erny]

Suggesting that the ANKC is one of the conspirators against IPO clubs is heading in that direction IMO. We all know the ANKC doesn't support IPO. To suggest that the ANKC has actually taken action to see it outlawed is a very long bow that requires substantiation. Otherwise, its going to piss members off.

Ahh .... I thought you were making reference to things I've written here. Oops.

[poodlefan]

Suggesting that the ANKC is one of the conspirators against IPO clubs is heading in that direction IMO. We all know the ANKC doesn't support IPO. To suggest that the ANKC has actually taken action to see it outlawed is a very long bow that requires substantiation. Otherwise, its going to piss members off.

Ahh .... I thought you were making reference to things I've written here. Oops.

Definitely not.

[Paganman]

Votes are the best motivator in political circles.

Yeah I agree but the trouble is that most of joe public would probably agree that these dog sports should be banned coz the dogs taking part are taught to bite and thats wrong in their eyes. Joe Public dont really think about these laws they just accept them because on the surface they seem right and sensible and they dont know any better.

Training dogs to attack things is dangerous and shouldnt happen.

Pit bulls are fighting dogs and people shouldnt be allowed to own them

Tail docking is cruel and shouldnt be allowed

If your an ordinary person and you happen to hear about these laws youll most likely agree with them I know I wouldve thought they were good laws if I hadnt been on dogz for a while. I reckon most ordinary people believe what they hear and plenty would be for heaps more restrictions on dogs and not many against coz most people arnt into dogs like the people on here are.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Well this is a great start guys as it has minds ticking over.

[poodlefan]

I'm not a personal fan of IPO. By the same token I'm not a fan of flyball.. no real issues with either - just not my thing.

However, responsibly conducted, I don't think IPO poses any danger to society. If it causes no harm, why ban it.

The trick to winning hearts and minds is to demonstrate just how well trained and how controlled these dogs are.

The problem for Victorians is that the ban is on the books. Overturning it will require some serious lobbying to win the support of the groups influential in shaping animal welfare law in that State. You know who the major one is.

The other option is for every IPO trainer to get themselves that security license.

Edited December 10, 2008 by poodlefan

[Erny]

There's another chatsite that I pop in and look at from time to time. It's not moderated and the conversations are not as informative and educational, IMO, as here on DOL as often the threads don't get a chance to 'go' anywhere. Anyway - one of the arguments 'they' (a certain number of its members) use (when it supports what they want) is that when a defendant is convicted, it shows that they were guilty .... they frequently roll that over to mean it was therefore 'wrong'.

That's the problem here, IMO. Remember - I'm working on the assumption that the charges are merely technical (and in the absence of more information, that's all I can do). Once the Court Case goes through and if lost, the 'view' of the 'people' will be that the group was in the wrong for what they DO, rather than on the basis of technicality.

Sometimes I think you shouldn't compromise yourself when you're right ..... even if it means fighting something that for decades has been legal but due to technicalities (as opposed to real evidence for reason) has been made illegal.

I think that if a regulation came in banning me being allowed to wear my pink hat, I'd continue to wear my pink hat. It seems to me that to not do so is so often now viewed by the law-makers as an acceptance of a law and that makes changing that law all the more difficult.

As for the regulations pertaining to bite-work ..... I can only guess they were objected to. I didn't know about them until they were 'in'.

ETA: I don't really own a pink hat.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Erny

[poodlefan]

I think the first thing we reallly need to know is what the charges are. Are they criminal or breaches of council regs or both??

All guilty means is that the elements of the offence are proven to the degree required by law.

If I do 160kph (is that possible in a Magna?) in a 60 zone taking a seriously injured person to casualty, then I'm as guilty as hell of speeding. It doesn't mean what I was doing was wrong.

That's where sentencing and not recording a conviction give the court the ability to make the punishment fit the "crime".

Edited December 10, 2008 by poodlefan

[Herr Rottweiler]

I'm not a personal fan of IPO. By the same token I'm not a fan of flyball.. no real issues with either - just not my thing.

However, responsibly conducted, I don't think IPO poses any danger to society. If it causes no harm, why ban it.

The trick to winning hearts and minds is to demonstrate just how well trained and how controlled these dogs are.

The problem for Victorians is that the ban is on the books. Overturning it will require some serious lobbying to win the support of the groups influential in shaping animal welfare law in that State. You know who the major one is.

The other option is for every IPO trainer to get themselves that security license.

I'll give you an example of a demonstration we gave to a local laws division of the local council about 10 years ago.

I was wearing the sleeve and a member sent his dog in to conduct and hold and bark, (meaning the dog comes in and sits in front of the decoy/ helper/ badguy and waits for them to posture agression before the dog reacts).

As the dog came in, i ran, threw the sleeve on the ground and kept moving. The dog went for the sleeve and ignored me.

3 of the 4 councilers said, "That's brilliant"

1 said, "look at how savage the dog is attacking that sleeve"

They see what they want to see

[Erny]

I think the first thing we reallly need to know is what the charges are. Are they criminal or breaches of council regs or both??

I agree - we need to know more.

All guilty means is that the elements of the offence are proven to the degree required by law.

To the people who understand this, yes. But many people don't and their personal judgements become warped as a result. That's something we can't help change.

If I do 160kph (is that possible in a Magna?) in a 60 zone taking a seriously injured person to casualty, then I'm as guilty as hell of speeding. It doesn't mean what I was doing was wrong.

If you wear a pink hat, it might deflect the Court's opinion .

That's where sentencing and not recording a conviction give the court the ability to make the punishment fit the "crime".

Ok - this is where I'm lost. How can you sentence without a conviction?

[Erny]

I'm not a personal fan of IPO. By the same token I'm not a fan of flyball.. no real issues with either - just not my thing.

I'm a bit the same. I can admire what people do within their chosen sport fields, but that doesn't mean it is my cuppa either.

However, responsibly conducted, I don't think IPO poses any danger to society.

Agree here too. Moreover, I think the 'good' that it does needs to be seriously considered. And that's something that seems to be being 'lost' on the nay-sayers.

If it causes no harm, why ban it.

Yet they do. Consistently. And it is this that I am concerned with.

The trick to winning hearts and minds is to demonstrate just how well trained and how controlled these dogs are.

I'm sure this has been tried. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

The other option is for every IPO trainer to get themselves that security license.

I've raised this as an option once, ages ago. I can't remember the answer - but it wasn't so simple. I think Jeff Jones might have explained it to me. You there, Jeff? (Edited to add : I think it had something to do with having to be employed within the security industry .... )

Edited December 10, 2008 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

If it causes no harm, why ban it.

Yet they do. Consistently. And it is this that I am concerned with.

The trick to winning hearts and minds is to demonstrate just how well trained and how controlled these dogs are.

I'm sure this has been tried. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

That's right Erny they do constantly remove the "RIGHT".

It is nothing to do with punishing the DEED just blanket ban. Watch the movie V for Vendetta. Fiction now but who knows in the not so distant future.

As they say Erny, in the world of the blind the one eyed man is king

[Erny]

HR .... have you/they thought about getting a Petition together? I know it's not directly related to the "Court Case" as such, but something like that might help in more ways than one.

[MAC]

you know HR and Erny you are both right... i feel soooo sorry for that club i was attending there and Istvan and John were all professionals AND i learnt heaps... AND MISS IT TOO!! Used to love driving 2 hours to get there up and back BUT it was brilliant!

It angers me that WE AUSTRALIA, such a up to date country ARE SO DAM BACKWARDS....

Europe has KNVP has Schutzhund, has French and Belgium Rings sports among MANY harder sports and WAY more dangerous then WE DO... YET our clubs are closing down... yet WE seem to have all our dogs banned OR BREEDS OR FUN and time with our pets..

USA have the same as Europe if not MORE Schutzhund clubs... what on earth are doing???

Has this country fallen off the wagon and I’m talking about the MORONS who are making these stupid laws up to SUIT their own FAT a#@%s and not making it better for any of US who LOVE to spend time with our dogs.

I will give you an example OF what i witnessed when i was down training at the club with Istvan, Crystal, John.... we trained Sundays... Saturdays was kids athletics day or something.. they decided that they were doing a athletics train day IN OUR TIME!!! On a SUNDAY during OUR training... :shakehead: SO here we have Dogs that are SO called DANGEROUS!!! kids running THRU OUR area (the ground) where we had the 6 tents up and a dog was doing it's Revere.... AND DID NOT chase the kid BUT did what HIS owner told him to do.. there was no aggression or nothing.. NOW what REALLY REALLY makes me MAD if these little ba$#$ds.. (and their bloomin athletics teachers/ parents..) If something had gone wrong, someone had gotten bitten Or attacked it would be the DOGS fault... the SPORTS fault.. BAN BAN BAN it really makes me sooo angry! But not ban parents from taking their kids where training is happening… not ban parents from allowing kids to screw up.

I am disgusted in our country AND ITS attitude towards dogs and the sports.. (I’m talking about these di$%#h$#%ds) who keep changing the laws... the di$%#h$#%ds who make dogs go wild or train to kill like the fighting dog people etc.. SO why WHY is it WE have to SUFFER for some incompetent nit wit who sits on his backside all day and then goes.. “hmmm which organisation OR breed can i screw over today…..”

it really angers me! really really does.. I feel really hurt and angry that this happened to the one place i loved to go to. great people and professional work. Good luck to John and Istvan and these bastards who make their own laws can go stick it up themselves for once... if I ever seen them I would bite them.. what they going to ban me too for having teeth.. JERKS!

Sorry guys… just really really makes me angry.. and it’s very sad that we are the only country where Schutzhund clubs are dying out.

sorry edited due to my blunt use of rude words...

Edited December 10, 2008 by madboutgsd

[Kavik]

madboutgsd

That's what I don't understand either. Why is Australia kicking up such a big stink about IPO/SchH? When it is practiced worldwide, and Europe has the several Ringsports as well, which look much more complicated and they are biting a suit, not just an arm.

But then again, Europe and the USA are much more accepting of PPCollars and Ecollars than Australia as well. Why?

[poodlefan]

Ok - this is where I'm lost. How can you sentence without a conviction?

You can find the offence proven but, in some circumstances, not record a conviction. No sentence is given. You tend to see it here for first time low range PCA offences for where the driver has an otherwise good driving record.

Edited December 10, 2008 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

madboutgsd

That's what I don't understand either. Why is Australia kicking up such a big stink about IPO/SchH?

Australia isn't. Victoria changed their laws. The stink is being kicked up because the IPO community just realised what happened.

In some countries you can still course your dogs on live game, hunt foxes using hounds and crop dogs ears. Should we follow those leads also?

Or should we follow the German lead and ban more breeds?

What's happening elsewhere isn't relevant I'm afraid. Concentrate on Victoria.

[MAC]

madboutgsd

That's what I don't understand either. Why is Australia kicking up such a big stink about IPO/SchH? When it is practiced worldwide, and Europe has the several Ringsports as well, which look much more complicated and they are biting a suit, not just an arm.

But then again, Europe and the USA are much more accepting of PPCollars and Ecollars than Australia as well. Why?

exactly Kavik... what's next... how come chockers arent banned? they hurt more then prongs AND for longer.. they are dangerous too then..

poodlefan - What's happening elsewhere isn't relevant I'm afraid. Concentrate on Victoria.

but it is... that's the point... on the sports front.. other countries are expanding AND successful YET here in oz our clubs are shutting down... why?? and Victoria..

better i shudup and

[poodlefan]

poodlefan - What's happening elsewhere isn't relevant I'm afraid. Concentrate on Victoria.

but it is... that's the point... on the sports front.. other countries are expanding AND successful YET here in oz our clubs are shutting down... why?? and Victoria..

better i shudup and

Partially because laws are changing to restrict the activity but I gather this has never really been a mainsteam dog sport for a lot of people. The fact that the ANKC don't support it would also be a factor.

You'd be in a far better position than I to establish why owners of these kind of breeds don't want to do the sport but I think to some degree it might be because the breeds themselves are also changing in terms of temperament.

[MAC]

brilliant point Poodlefan... the ANKC... too right hun... but it's a very very SAD factor! very sad

yes too many people with their noses so far up someone elses to be able to see where the stink really comes from.. figuratively speaking. I would say tho that the breed is changing and so is what people are making it too or making OF it i should say.

[Nekhbet]

You'd be in a far better position than I to establish why owners of these kind of breeds don't want to do the sport but I think to some degree it might be because the breeds themselves are also changing in terms of temperament.

because its hard, because we have been isolated for so long we let our dogs slip that they cannot do their original functions or one of.

The GSDC will not support schutzhund. Most GSDs could not even pass the temp test let alone gain IPO/SCH3 these days. I dont know many Malinois people who are against it, then again this is one of their primary reasons for being bred. we are not a culture of working dog owners like europe and USA. We are pet people now in Aus hence why majority shy away from anything that looks like it might hurt us.

What a pack of bloody nancys. Puppy farmers are given a pat on the back but people who love their dogs and train them to an international standard are dragged through the courts What the hell is wrong with people these days. In over 5 years I have seen more aggressive and insane pet dogs then out of control schutzhund and security dogs. I get the jeebies walking into some peoples houses as the untrained spoiled diddums of this world do a hell of a lot more damage then the schutzhund dogs ever will.