Broken Toe & Dodgy Elbows...what Next?

[woody2shoes]

Hi, my now 13mo lab bitch broke her toe a week ago after tumblng down a hidden embankment. X-rays showed a clean, non-displaced break above the knuckle of the outside toe on her RIGHT foot which was subsequently strapped in a half-cast. Estimated recovery time - 4 weeks.

Unfortunately, she also has a very ordinary LEFT elbow (the result of joint degeneration secondary to Elbow Dysplasia and surgery) which she has been favouring badly of late so the poor thing doesn't know which leg to limp on now! OMG!!!! Can she possibly do herself any more damage????

Ironically, just two days prior to breaking her toe, I'd had her back to the orthapaedic specialist for follow up CT Scans to evaluate her elbows. There was some concern that another fragment may have broken away.

Unfortunately, the prognosis isn't good. She has been doing brilliantly with her retrieving work and suddenly, everything has gone pear shaped. It appears she now has significant osteoarthritis of the left elbow which is the cause of her lameness and increased joint effusion. The specialist was very pessimistic. He said she definitely would not be able to retrieve and recommended that her exercise regime should consist of being walked quietly on lead for the rest of her life!!!!!!!! He even handed me a pamphlet on elbow replacement surgery which is apparently now available in Australia. Of course, when I can find another spare several thousand dollars, I guess that might have to be an option.

It's hard to put into words how dissapointed/depressed I am. Of course my priority is to make her comfortable & somehow still give her a good quality of life. So I am hopeful that if nothing else, she will eventually be able to have some quiet off-lead time on her own and that perhaps I will be able to give her some retrieves in water as part of her exercise regime. Am I being unrealistic??? Am I just refusing to accept such a pessimistic outcome????

Can anyone share their experiences if they've had this sort of thing happen to their dog? Any feedback would be welcome.

w2s

Edited December 6, 2008 by woody2shoes

[puggy_puggy]

Poor girl.

It's only a thought but sounds like her bones might be brittle, or something to that accord, with her both breaking her toe and having dodgey elbows.

What sort of food do you feed? Maybe it is worth changing.

Has the vet suggested any supplements? I am thinking that it might be a good idea to get her onto something like glucosamine.

[Leema]

I'm sorry to hear about your girl. I don't have any experience with elbow issues, but your story reminded me of this article. It might be worth a read for you.

http://www.silvia.trkman.net/agilityisgood.htm

[woody2shoes]

Poor girl.

It's only a thought but sounds like her bones might be brittle, or something to that accord, with her both breaking her toe and having dodgey elbows.

What sort of food do you feed? Maybe it is worth changing.

Has the vet suggested any supplements? I am thinking that it might be a good idea to get her onto something like glucosamine.

Hi puggy_puggy,

I can see why it might appear that way but I don't believe she has any issue with her bones being brittle. The broken toe was really just bad luck. Apparently the local vet said it doesn't take much - just flipping it back hard enough will cause it to break.

I am still feeding her Eaglepak large/giant breed puppy formula which I consider to be very good. Not sure what else I can do. And she has been on Joint Guard & fish oil capsules for most of her life. In addition, she is on NSAI for the moment.

Leema,

Thanks for the link. That's quite an inspiring story...from my limited knowledg of OA, keeping the joints mobile is quite paramount so the thread of the article is very logical. I really don't want to confine Gidget any longer/more than necessary and I will try to bring her back into some sort of 'normal' routine, her elbows permitting. I guess I will have to be realistic and accept that training her on handling drills which require the dog to sprint, stop hard and spin sharply is just not going to be good for her elbows. I think my idea of swimming her on retrieves might be beneficial and should (hopefully) satisfy her retrieving drive.

Cheers, and thanks for your thoughts.

w2s

Edited December 6, 2008 by woody2shoes

[stormie]

Sorry to hear about your girl.

May I ask what her exercise/retriever training regime has been since a puppy?

Have you considered a visit to a chiropractor? They might be able to help the rest of her body stay free which might help her to cope with her bad elbow...

[woody2shoes]

Sorry to hear about your girl.

May I ask what her exercise/retriever training regime has been since a puppy?

Have you considered a visit to a chiropractor? They might be able to help the rest of her body stay free which might help her to cope with her bad elbow...

Hi Stormie,

Following her recovery from surgery, I brought her on very, very slowly, gradually getting her to the point where she was coping easily with normal exercise. I then began giving her some marking practice where she would see the item thrown & would be sent to retrieve it. This involves some running but isn't too hard on the joints. Typically, she would get 3 in a training session. As her fitness level increased, I introduced some simple handling drills like the ones I described in my earlier post. Eventually, she was getting the drills in the morning, and marking practice (including water retrieves) after work.

I think your idea about visiting a chiropractor is a great one. I don't suppose there's one in the Echuca/Bendigo/Swan Hill area that someone can recommend???? We seem to live in the middle of nowhere!!! I might just have to schedule some trips to Melbourne on a regular basis & take her to one I know of down there. Wish there was a place near here where I could take her for hydrotherapy in due course too.

I have been giving the whole situation a lot of thought. Clearly I may have to change my focus so I could at least concentrate of getting her CD. I guess we can only try!

Cheers,

w2s

Edited December 6, 2008 by woody2shoes

[ILuvAmstaffs]

Perhaps it might be worth trying a few other combinations of supps. My boy has severe arthritis in one leg as a result of FCP & it took a bit of trial & error to find the sup that worked best for him. I had him on jointguard for a while & saw improvement, but found that a glucosamine, chondroitin & msm mix such as Flexicose combined with Ester C saw a much greater improvement. I also think changing him to a raw diet helped as well.

[New Age Outlaw]

I am still feeding her Eaglepak large/giant breed puppy formula which I consider to be very good. Not sure what else I can do. And she has been on Joint Guard & fish oil capsules for most of her life.

You could add some vitamin E powder to help absorption of the omega3 from the fish oil. Not sure what else.

[woody2shoes]

Perhaps it might be worth trying a few other combinations of supps. I found that a glucosamine, chondroitin & msm mix such as Flexicose combined with Ester C saw a much greater improvement. I also think changing him to a raw diet helped as well.

Hi ILA,

I never thought of that! Well worth a try...is the Ester C already part of the Flexicose or do you supplement it? I would love to think that I have the time and energy to try her on a raw diet but I have to be honest, I don't think I'd be able to maintain it long term.

Can you pls tell me a bit more about your boy's FCP? When did it start & what treatment did he have? How active is your boy and how much stiffness (if any) does he have in his leg after exercise/rest?

Thanks NAO, I can certainly add Vitamin E but have no idea how much is required. Can you help with this please?

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all your ideas.

w2s

[New Age Outlaw]

There are a few different vitamin e products around - I use a Troy product "NaturalE"...I think for my dogs the dose is a quarter of a scoop per day.

[blacklabrador]

I bred a pup with severe elbow dysplasia. The surgery, to my understanding, was never to cure him but to improve his quality of life. It was also my understanding that running about and retrieving etc was off the cards. His joints will degenerate and arthritis will develop - the more wear and tear, the sooner that will happen.

After a period of conditioning prior to surgery and a period of rehabilitation afterwards he has been rehomed with a lovely family who understand his limitations. Meanwhile I am still paying off the loan!

[woody2shoes]

The surgery, to my understanding, was never to cure him but to improve his quality of life.

Hi bl,

While I was never led to believe that there were any guarantees with my girl, there was certainly a reasonable chance that she might be able to train and compete, at least to some level. I certainly know of labs and goldens with ED who are still competing in retrieving today. In fact, one lab went on to get its title. Mind you, their owners couldn't tell me what kind of ED their dogs had so that could have some bearing too. My specialist simply said that every dog is different and I would have to see how things pan out. He said I would be guided by how well she tolerated the exercise and training and that's exactly what has happened.

Meanwhile I am still paying off the loan!

I so know what you mean. I guess that's what I go to work for!

w2s

[woody2shoes]

There are a few different vitamin e products around - I use a Troy product "NaturalE"...I think for my dogs the dose is a quarter of a scoop per day.

Thanks NEA, I'll have a little look today & see what I can find.

Cheers.

w2s

[ILuvAmstaffs]

I never thought of that! Well worth a try...is the Ester C already part of the Flexicose or do you supplement it? I would love to think that I have the time and energy to try her on a raw diet but I have to be honest, I don't think I'd be able to maintain it long term.

I use Wagners Ester C tabs available from most chemists. The added bonus has been that it also helped his skin a lot. I sometimes use the Wagners Glucosamine, Chondrioton & MSM powder which does contain Ester C, but I just boost the amount by adding an extra ester C tab to the mix.

Can you pls tell me a bit more about your boy's FCP? When did it start & what treatment did he have? How active is your boy and how much stiffness (if any) does he have in his leg after exercise/rest?

He became lame at around 4-5 months of age, had x-rays, vet couldn't see anything so put him on a 4 week course or cartrophen shots which was then extended to 6 weeks as no improvement was shown. At around 8-10 weeks after the first visit more x-rays were taken & a few weeks later we received a call saying he had FCP & if he wasn't operated on within the next few weeks that he would be so lame by the age of 4 that we would have to put him down. In the meantime we had seen a chiro that was recommended by many people who told us he definately could not feel any issues with the joint & it was infact a torn shoulder muscle causing the pain & to rest him & it would come good. He was 8 months by this time.

We went for a second opinion at Syd Uni Referral Vet & they could see the fragment on the first set of x-rays. He was operated on the next week. Both the fragment were removed as well as an ulna-ostectomy. He was confined to the house for 8 weeks after the op & toileted on lead & then we began short walks on lead for exercise over the following few months. We would walk him to the corner (100m) and back & as he started to show no signs of limping we increased the frequency of the walks rather than the distance. He had a follow-up 4 week course of cartrophen shots starting from 8 weeks post op then follow-up x-rays which had shown the arthritis had become severe & that the ulna had again grown causing pressure on the joint.

Now at 2.5 years of age you would barely notice a limp except after heavy exercise, which we try to limit but sometimes when playing with other dogs it is hard to not let him play & he sometimes has a bad few weeks where I begin to worry that what we are doing is wrong, but then he comes good again... though he only has these bad times once every few months. I am sure that it is usually the cold weather during winter that causes the discomfort.

The main things I can think of that help are:

* The right mix of supps

* Monitoring their exercise so you know what their limits are

* Keeping their weight down but maintaining muscle tone

* Keeping them warm during winter

Hope this helps.

[woody2shoes]

He became lame at around 4-5 months of age, had x-rays, vet couldn't see anything so put him on a 4 week course or cartrophen shots which was then extended to 6 weeks as no improvement was shown. At around 8-10 weeks after the first visit more x-rays were taken & a few weeks later we received a call saying he had FCP & if he wasn't operated on within the next few weeks that he would be so lame by the age of 4 that we would have to put him down. In the meantime we had seen a chiro that was recommended by many people who told us he definately could not feel any issues with the joint & it was infact a torn shoulder muscle causing the pain & to rest him & it would come good. He was 8 months by this time.

We went for a second opinion at Syd Uni Referral Vet & they could see the fragment on the first set of x-rays. He was operated on the next week. Both the fragment were removed as well as an ulna-ostectomy. He was confined to the house for 8 weeks after the op & toileted on lead & then we began short walks on lead for exercise over the following few months. We would walk him to the corner (100m) and back & as he started to show no signs of limping we increased the frequency of the walks rather than the distance. He had a follow-up 4 week course of cartrophen shots starting from 8 weeks post op then follow-up x-rays which had shown the arthritis had become severe & that the ulna had again grown causing pressure on the joint.

Now at 2.5 years of age you would barely notice a limp except after heavy exercise, which we try to limit but sometimes when playing with other dogs it is hard to not let him play & he sometimes has a bad few weeks where I begin to worry that what we are doing is wrong, but then he comes good again... though he only has these bad times once every few months. I am sure that it is usually the cold weather during winter that causes the discomfort.

The main things I can think of that help are:

* The right mix of supps

* Monitoring their exercise so you know what their limits are

* Keeping their weight down but maintaining muscle tone

* Keeping them warm during winter

Hope this helps.

Thanks ILA,

Your boy's scenario isn't unlike Gidget's except that I went for CT scans at 5 1/2mo to get a difinitive diagnosis when earlier x-rays showed no issue. My girl had bilateral arthrotomy for FCP that same day. Luckily, I think, she did not have UAP so no need for an ulnar-ostectomy. Her post-op recovery was a bit faster as a result.

I live in hope then! I don't care if my girl can't compete or even train (actually I really miss training her - she just LOOOOOOOVES her work) but I don't think I could bear it if she could never run free again. That seems unimaginable.

I have always had her weight right down, I'll have a play with her supps to see if I can give her any more relief, and my specialist has recommended a course of cartrophen every 6 months for the rest of her life, one at the end of autumn just prior to the onset of our cold months. She sleeps indoors and is already a lounge lizard but all the more so since this latest drama started. She hates that of course - NOT! I guess keeping her mobile and toned will depend a lot on how much exercise she can tolerate. I plan to do as much swimming with her as I can manage during the warm months.

I sure hope your boy continues to enjoy being pain free. He deserves it after all you've done for him.

Cheers,

w2s

[ILuvAmstaffs]

Thanks W2S.

Goodluck with your girl as well. To be honest, I think they will usually limit their own exercise if you let them. As for competing, I'm not sure how much jumping etc is involved, but that is the only part that I would really worry about & if it was possible to train 90% of the time doing the stuff that doesn't involve jumping & only doing enough of the stuff that does to get you by, then maybe you could look at altering the training routine to allow for her weaknesses.

At this stage I would say it's early days & the greatest improvement I saw was from around 12 months after the op.

Again, goodluck with it all & keep us posted as to how he is going.

P.S

Do you know whether the elbow replacements are widely available & ifso, what the approx cost is? I'm thinking that it might be an option if Diesel deteriorates when he is much older.