Marker/release Cue Clarification Please!

[Guest RosieFT]

I would love somebody to shed light on this for me please.

I have used 'ok'' as a release word from the beginning and use it in scenarios like, Rosie has been asked to 'wait' before going through a gate/into car/dinner etc. Or she has to sit when i come to a road crossing, and gets an "ok' when she can get up and cross.

At obedience they link the word 'good' with a reward. So, "good" then food immediately.

But I am a bit confused, and therefore perhaps Rosie is.

In Puppy obedience, we did multiple sits .. they had us in front of dog, sitting them, good/feed, step back a pace with dog and ask for a sit, etc. etc. They don't use a 'release' word as such. I did ask them should i be having dog sit, good/feed, then 'ok', then step back and they looked at me as if i was nutty and said, 'if you want to'. Everyone else was just sitting/gooding and food luring into the next step and sit. Was i off the mark then?

Another example, I am teaching Rosie 'down/sit/down' combinations and will tell her good for each component, but then i finish with an 'ok' before walking off or whatever.

If the excersize is over and i want to give her a break, she gets 'free" and we have a little hyper moment.

So could someone please clarify for me, if you have a marker word such as 'good', do you always use a release word? or should the excersizes flow on ??

I hope i am making myself clear!

thanks in advance and I hope I don't sound like a complete gumby!

[huski]

So 'ok' is the word you use to release the dog from stays etc, not necessarily the word you use to acknowledge the dog has done something right?

I use the word 'yes' to pre-empt the release word, so I use 'yes' as an indication to the dog that they have done something correct and a treat or praise or release is coming.

Edited November 15, 2008 by huski

[RubyStar]

"Good" or "yes" or whatever short word you choose, is your marker word for the dog getting the exercise right, and if you food reward, they expect the food reward right after the marker word. Your release command of "ok" is different to the marker word, and you'd use this when the exercise is completely over. In your step backward/sit/reward scenario, I would just keep using the marker word/treat and forget the release command, as you're not actually releasing her from anything yet, she is still performing the exercises for you on a small repeat. I use a release word when the exercise is completely over and they can relax for a minute, or as their cue to eat or cue to move if for eg, sitting waiting to come through a door. I hope that makes sense? I'm sure others will have some better advice but hope it helps somewhat.

As an aside, do you attend obedience training in Perth?

[Guest RosieFT]

huski - that is correct. My 'OK" is my release word. My 'good' is what i assume is my marker word, whereby the dog knows it has done the right thing and looks for reward.

Ruby, perfectly clarified for me. Thankyou. Makes perfect sense now for that scenario. :-)

Yes, I do go to obed. in Perth. It isn't beautiful Milly in your photo is it?!?!?!?

[RubyStar]

Ruby, perfectly clarified for me. Thankyou. Makes perfect sense now for that scenario. :-)

Yes, I do go to obed. in Perth. It isn't beautiful Milly in your photo is it?!?!?!?

Glad it helped

And yes, that is Millie! I recognised the name Rosie and thought it might be you! Rosie's a gorgeous thing, takes treats so gently from your hand, loved it! As opposed to my treat snatching labs

[Erny]

Terms such as "good" or "good boy/girl" I use as encouragement and feedback .... letting them know their behaviour is on the right track.

"Yes" I use as the marker word to let them know they did what I wanted.

"Free" I use to release the dogs from whatever command they might have been under at the time.

In the earlier days of training, and assuming I am using a food treat as reward, I release ("free!") and then treat. Only because in those early days the excitement of receiving the treat can inadvertently induce a break of the command prior to release.

As their skill/s improve (and depending on the exercise) I give "feedback" ("good") and give the food treat (again, assuming this is what I'm using) whilst they are still in the command, releasing ("free!") and engaging in more active reward after that.

In your case, you seem to be using "OK" as a release word in some instances and "Free" in others? Or is it a case that "OK" in the way you use it is a command to say it's fine to cross the road? But if that's the case, when do you then bring in your "Free" release word to indicate to your dog that he/she is no longer under a command and that you have no particular expectations of behaviour (save for those which are standard and always in place, eg. not pulling on lead etc).

I don't use a command for stopping at curbs before roads so I don't need to "release" from there. I use the word "cross" though to tell the dog it is now ok to proceed across the road. But if I did give the command to (eg) "sit" before the curb, I would give "free" to release and "cross" to proceed over.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Erny

[Guest RosieFT]

Erny - I appreciate your time and response.

ok, at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, but I do want to be crystal on this before I potentially mess up further.

I ask dog to "sit", she sits, i say "good' - high pitch and clipped as told by obedience people, and feed immediately after. If I want to follow with 'down' 'stay' or whatever, I do not release with an OK or anything, i just give next command. However, if I want to walk off, i say "ok' and walk off with her and then do more excersizes. Or if she can get up from lying down, I say "ok" and she gets up.

We still have loose lead issues, so if the lead goes tight, I stop, wait for it to relax - be it because she has chosen to sit, step back a step, turned to look at me - then i say, "good" "ok" and off we go again. At this point I have to add that although it works to a point, any distractions or new place and she is too excited to bother and I am tempted to barbara woodhouse her.. obviously i am failing somewhere..b ut that is another topic.

If I have finished a block of excersize and I want to give her a break, or if I am completely finished, I say "Free" and act excited, she runs at me, gets a bit hyped then I either refocus and continue training or have already let her off leash. This is what I have taken it to mean by the instructors at obedience, but perhaps i am wrong?!?

However, and please excuse my ramblings, I am just thinking of examples and typing, sometimes when i say 'good', I can see Rosie is going to release at that point, so I might add in a quick second word ..like, "good... sit" "good.. stay" ... and this keeps her in excersize.

When i say "sit" at road, then "ok", she takes the ok as the signal to cross. Your description would add in a step.. the ok would release her from the sit, but not actually ask her to cross yet....

It seemed so simple when i read up on training dogs, have i messed up?

The obedience people say that good is to be linked so strongly with food/reward that you can phase out food and the 'good' has the power of a food reward. When i told them that i was having trouble with 'down' in the sense that if I didn't have food everytime she would just refuse, they told me i had obviously not linked 'good' with food strongly enough. sigh. but she does look for food when i say 'good' so i disagree.

I have to say that after doing some more reading, i have this past 2 days put in a correction with my hand on her back, when she has responded to 'down', the first two times perfectly and then ignored me because there was no food reward, and it has been like a magic bullet. She now will go from sit to down at a short distance, and never hesitates. I only had to correct her on a few occasions.

I know i sound like a rambling idiot, i am just trying my best here and wanting to not mess up this little dog who does try, but on her terms :-) .

I appreciate any help or advice, so thankyou.

[Erny]

Erny - I appreciate your time and response. ok, at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot

No you're not risking that at all. It can all be confusing at the beginning and it's good to try to get it straight and keep it as simple as possible from the beginning.

I ask dog to "sit", she sits, i say "good' - high pitch and clipped as told by obedience people, and feed immediately after. If I want to follow with 'down' 'stay' or whatever, I do not release with an OK or anything, i just give next command. However, if I want to walk off, i say "ok' and walk off with her and then do more excersizes. Or if she can get up from lying down, I say "ok" and she gets up.

Yes. It is fine to switch from one command to another without giving the release word. In this (above) case your release word is "OK". If you want "OK" as your release word then that's what you use in all cases to release your dog from being in a command to NOT being in a command. Whilst a dog is under a command though, I wouldn't use "good" in high pitched excited tones - that will only serve to encourage her to break from the command. I tend to use it more in lower but encouraging tones. I use the high pitched happy/exciting tones ONCE I have released the dog from the command by using (in your case) the "OK" word.

We still have loose lead issues, so if the lead goes tight, I stop, wait for it to relax - be it because she has chosen to sit, step back a step, turned to look at me - then i say, "good" "ok" and off we go again.

I won't argue 'handling technique' at this point as that's not really what the topic is about and also because you are under instruction from your trainer. However for loose lead walking (and I don't mean "heel") the dog is in "release mode". So in my opinion, there's no need for the "OK" word. If your dog is not under a command there's nothing to release her from. I don't use a command for loose lead walking because I teach my dog that this is an automatic expectation, not something I want to have to tell him/her each time.

If I have finished a block of excersize and I want to give her a break, or if I am completely finished, I say "Free" and act excited, she runs at me, gets a bit hyped then I either refocus and continue training or have already let her off leash. This is what I have taken it to mean by the instructors at obedience, but perhaps i am wrong?!?

I do similar but only for training "in drive". A word that switches drive on and a different word that switches it off. In between, "free" is the word I use to release the dog from being under a command.

What explanation has your trainer given to you for needing to use two different words (ie "OK" and "Free") if you're not training in drive? For the more common style of training (which is usually termed "avoidance training" in the technical circles) I like to teach a dog to "live" for the release command, so I only use the one "release" word. If the dog is not (training) in drive, I'm not sure I see the need for a second different release word to signify 'lesson session over' as with each practiced command that's effectively what you're doing with the "OK" word. I'm not saying your trainer is wrong - many of us have our different ways for different reasons. And perhaps it is that I just don't understand what it is that you've been taught or for why.

sometimes when i say 'good', I can see Rosie is going to release at that point, so I might add in a quick second word ..like, "good... sit" "good.. stay" ... and this keeps her in excersize.

For the initial phase of training I use similar. Something like "nice sit .... good". But I use low, soft, encouraging tones - just as feedback to let the dog know that he/she is doing what I want him/her to do. But I use that only when the dog is 'holding' the command, not wait until the dog goes to break. If the dog goes to break a verbal correction (eg. "ahh") is better IMO. Otherwise, your dog may learn that to get you to give her nice feedback, she needs to jiggle or threaten to break.

When i say "sit" at road, then "ok", she takes the ok as the signal to cross.

Well, not specifically. Because you're teaching her that "OK" means you're not under command anymore, that's all she's learning. She would be crossing the road of course, probably because you are too. So the word "OK" in this instance is not specifically related to crossing the road. It just tells her she doesn't have to sit anymore. That you are crossing the road is incidental.

Your description would add in a step.. the ok would release her from the sit, but not actually ask her to cross yet....

I don't teach "sit" at the curb. It annoys me. I work to teach a dog simply to not cross the road unless he/she hears the word from me to say it is fine to do so, regardless of what position the dog has adopted/volunteered (eg. sit/stand/drop) when we came to a halt there. I hate needing (for the sake of training) to stop at every curbside we come across so my dog will sit. I only want my dog to refuse to cross the road unless he/she hears my word that says it is alright to do so. I use the word "cross" for this. So my word "cross" IS specific to crossing the road.

It seemed so simple when i read up on training dogs, have i messed up?

Nope, you haven't 'messed up'. I think you're simply using two different release words when one would do. But check with your trainer first for the reason I mentioned above. I don't cross train over another trainer as sometimes what gets written to me is not exactly what is meant, or is simply that trainer's 'style' of training and by all accounts would probably be fine, even if it does appear to me by what you've said to be a bit more superfluous than what I suspect it needs to be (ie two release words). And because a person receiving instruction from one trainer and then asking it of another can confuse the issue even further for that person. There is also ethics involved .

The obedience people say that good is to be linked so strongly with food/reward that you can phase out food and the 'good' has the power of a food reward. When i told them that i was having trouble with 'down' in the sense that if I didn't have food everytime she would just refuse, they told me i had obviously not linked 'good' with food strongly enough. sigh. but she does look for food when i say 'good' so i disagree.

You need to talk to them about how to move on to intermittent schedule of rewards.

I have to say that after doing some more reading, i have this past 2 days put in a correction with my hand on her back, when she has responded to 'down', the first two times perfectly and then ignored me because there was no food reward, and it has been like a magic bullet. She now will go from sit to down at a short distance, and never hesitates. I only had to correct her on a few occasions.

Well timed, placed and judiciously used corrections can do wonders for some dogs' training. Makes their learning more black and white than does all reward and no correction IMO.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Erny

[dogdude]

I basically use the same senario as Erny.

"Gooooood" is used as feedback, mainly to let the dog know that what he is doing, is what I want him to continue to do, for exercises that require prolonged concentration like focus, and holding good heel position, stays etc. Its used lengthen these exercises.

It wouldn't be used for getting the dog to do an exercise that has one quick mechanical action like sit or drop etc. "Yes" is used for this, and in both cases, "Ok" is used to release to reward.

The timing you use "Yes" in those short,one action exercises can be used to improve the speed of your sits and drops etc in a motivated dog.

Also, the "Good" communicator, is usually followed by the "Yes" marker, before release command "Ok".

[Erny]

Thank you Dogdude for adding the above. Using the "yes" marker prior to release and reward is what I do too . I forgot to mention that, I think. And also for mentioning the "gooooood" for exercises that are longer (eg. stay work).

Erny

[Guest RosieFT]

Thankyou to you both for the time and energy spent answering my question.

What you both say makes perfect sense to me.

Just to clarify, it is me bringing in the extra cue and adding to the confusion Not the trainers. They have only told us to use free/ or whatever after a huge chunk of training and encourage the praise, excitement. The more frequent intermittent release words (like I use "OK" ) have never been taught, unless I missed that bit?. I chose to use OK as a release to get up, cross etc. from reading up on dog training, but then used" free" as a reward in itself where my dog can then sniff, look around at dogs, be a loony toon for a bit. But I can see that it would be better to use ok, followed by lots of praise, game etc.

To be honest, I feel like a child at school put up a grade but missed out on a few key instructions! Going from beginners to adv. beginners and changing instructors , was like going from playgroup to Year 2 for a child. Most of us coming across were in shock. Different type of instructor, different lot of information, and an expectation of what our dogs were doing that was just NOT taught in the first class.

It is a big class, lots of dogs (20 maybe more) and to be honest, when i ask for help, I just get told it is the type of dog that she is and to expect that and that they take until 2yrs to calm down. "Foxies are notoriously hard to obedience train" .

I have been given 3 different bits of advice for her on leash stuff - and i always have to ask for it. Noone has seen me in trouble and jumped in to suggest anything. The first class instructor had us loose leash walking by changing direction or running backwards if dog pulled at all. Taking the advice, i spent alot of time at home doing this. It helped a bit, but Rosie is keen to go in any direction really...

Had a fill-in instructor one week who insisted i food lure to keep her at my side - at this point in the game she was really not interested in food when there was so much else to look at. She also told me to stop and call her to me - again, I was not even a blip on her radar with 15 other dogs marching around in her vicinity.

Next level up - new instructor tells me that the changing direction, running back way will never work and is not what she does. She does the stop and get dogs attention and gets her to come back to her, reward and on again. She even demonstrated, but Rosie loves people and was excited to meet her and come and say hi each time she stopped. With me, if she focuses on something she can stay there for ages.

In all cases, not allowed a correction on the leash.

I have been getting up very early or going after OH is home so I can walk the dog without slow children, or kids on bikes being with me so I can really focus on it.

Before the latest input about getting her to come right back to me, I had been stopping when leash went tight, and going when leash went slack. Initially I was going by the theory that the leash would tell the dog what was right or wrong - tight or slack and was not rewarding. The rewarding came in after latest obedience suggestion.

I was not wanting the dog to come right back to me, but rather i was staring at clip on leash/collar and watching when it lay flat. I found i was having some marked success with this as I felt the dog was choosing to do this rather than me having to command her to do something - like come to me. She would quickly sit, or step back to loosen the leash and on we would go. The first walk I spent alot of time standing still, but she picked it up fairly quickly and the walks around the block/park were getting really good.

However, took her to a new place, or if walked with kids/OH and they went ahead, or saw a dog and she was totally off on her high and didn't care how long i stood still for.

So when I asked how to deal with it, instructor's method seemed worth a try to get more focus and attention. Stop, call dog back to your side, reward and on again.

In practice, however, I felt it was just creating a command Rosie could ignore, or not 'hear'. It worked to a point, but if distracted she would still sit, or step back to loosen leash, but not come back to me. Then it got worse from there.

She does not pull as such, well not all the time, maybe if she wants to sniff something, but rather the leash is tight.

Having 2 young kids (3 and 5) I have been vigilent from the beginning at trying to prevent any pulling as i want them to be able to walk her. But, I have obviously failed!

So please, please, give me your suggestions as I really do not get much one on one help from obedience and am starting to view it more as a controlled socialisation opportunity. The loose lead walking is done with 2 rows of dogs marching around in a group unit, turning this way and that. I have no chance of keeping her attention on me. When i asked if this meant she should be closer to me in a heel position, i was told, oh no, loose lead. It is at this point that i get disenchanted/frustrated at myself and the dog as she is just lurching around.

Last time, i took her out of the regimental lines, and tried to get any focus on the sidelines.

thanks again.

[Erny]

Just to clarify, it is me bringing in the extra cue and adding to the confusion Not the trainers. They have only told us to use free/ or whatever after a huge chunk of training ...

Unless your dog is at a very advanced level of training, no .... the release command shouldn't come "after a huge chunk of training". You command "sit". Your dog sits. You release with your "free" word and have a huge chunk of fun!

Pick your release word and stick with it. Whether that be "OK" or whether you choose for it to be "free". And you use it to release your dog from a command every time, UNLESS you are merely changing from one command to another (eg "sit" then "drop" then "stand" then "heel"). Although I don't think you're up to that level of training yet with so many commands following on from each other - but I trust you get what I mean?

I can't help to think that you have actually gotten confused with what your trainer has said? Are you sure your trainer has instructed you to only use a release word after the end of the training session, as opposed to the end of each individual obedience exercise?

To be honest, I feel like a child at school put up a grade but missed out on a few key instructions! Going from beginners to adv. beginners and changing instructors , was like going from playgroup to Year 2 for a child. Most of us coming across were in shock. Different type of instructor, different lot of information, and an expectation of what our dogs were doing that was just NOT taught in the first class.

Perhaps there's been some missed communication between the transgression from one level to the next and one instructor to another. Is there someone at your dog obedience school who you can call to clarify? If the confusion is something your school has caused (it happens) it would be good for them to know that so they have an opportunity to catch up the others in your class who also might be confused for the same reason.

It is a big class, lots of dogs (20 maybe more) and to be honest, when i ask for help, I just get told it is the type of dog that she is and to expect that and that they take until 2yrs to calm down. "Foxies are notoriously hard to obedience train" .

Ummmm .... definitely talk to the higher management and let them know that you feel you are not receiving the help you need. Give them a chance to explain it. Sometimes asking for help inside a class of that size is something the instructor on the day and at the time can't give you. But if the school knows ahead of time, they might be able to organise something (or someone) who can give you a bit more helpful guidance. I'm not excusing them, but sometimes that's the difference between paying for dog obedience classes as opposed to engaging one-on-one assistance. The instructors usually can't afford to give you their full attention when others need and deserve instruction as well. However, with those realistic expectations in mind, it does sound as though explanation was not necessarily clear (especially considering others in your class are experiencing the same dilemma) and I would expect any reputable dog school to welcome your feedback and concerns so they can not only alleviate them but if necessary take steps to ensure as best as possible that the problem is not likely to occur again.

I have been given 3 different bits of advice for her on leash stuff - and i always have to ask for it. Noone has seen me in trouble and jumped in to suggest anything. The first class instructor had us loose leash walking by changing direction or running backwards if dog pulled at all. Taking the advice, i spent alot of time at home doing this. It helped a bit, but Rosie is keen to go in any direction really...

Had a fill-in instructor one week who insisted i food lure to keep her at my side - at this point in the game she was really not interested in food when there was so much else to look at. She also told me to stop and call her to me - again, I was not even a blip on her radar with 15 other dogs marching around in her vicinity.

Next level up - new instructor tells me that the changing direction, running back way will never work and is not what she does.

It does sound like you're receiving conflicting information. As above, I'd strongly suggest you speak to the higher management of the school. If it proves that they are unable to assist you, it is up to you as to whether you feel you would be better with tuition from elsewhere and in this instance if you let us know your location then someone here might be able to provide you with recommendation/s. But first speak to the school management and give them an opportunity to know of the problem, to fix it and to provide you with some help to clear up the confusion and apparent conflicting advice.

I have been getting up very early or going after OH is home so I can walk the dog without slow children, or kids on bikes being with me so I can really focus on it. ...Having 2 young kids (3 and 5) I have been vigilent from the beginning at trying to prevent any pulling as i want them to be able to walk her. But, I have obviously failed!

And I would like to see your enthusiasm, effort and dedication nourished. Don't let it be the school that gets you put off from doing this. You haven't failed! You just haven't quite mastered it yet and your confusion isn't assisting. Speak to them first and go from there. Let us know if we can be of any help once you have . Even perhaps one private lesson might help you work things through very quickly. Does your school provide you with that service (albeit with an additional fee)?

So please, please, give me your suggestions as I really do not get much one on one help from obedience ...

Many and most group class trainers will try to give "one-on-one" help as, when and if they can, but it isn't something you're 'entitled' to. That's something you do need to keep in mind and respect. However, you are entitled to instruction that is not conflicting and that is clear, and if you are receiving neither then you should be entitled to request the school remedy whatever error on their part has created it.

The loose lead walking is done with 2 rows of dogs marching around in a group unit, turning this way and that. I have no chance of keeping her attention on me. When i asked if this meant she should be closer to me in a heel position, i was told, oh no, loose lead. It is at this point that i get disenchanted/frustrated at myself and the dog as she is just lurching around.

I never recommend trying to teach for "heel" until loose lead walking is established. Regardless, loose lead does not mean long lead (just as short lead does not mean tight lead) - don't know if that's where what the instructor has said has confused you. I'm not going to try to justify, explain nor clarify what the instructor might or might not have meant as not being there makes that impossible. But definitely, speak to higher management and if you do not receive the assistance you need to straighten out the confusion, then perhaps another school would be better for you. Don't allow the frustration of it to get to you to the point you give up in dismay. But simultaneously, remember that a private lesson or two is another option for you.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Erny

[Guest RosieFT]

Thankyou, in so many ways, the information and encouragement, just thankyou. Yes, i was considering dropping out completely, but want to do what is best for Rosie to become a well rounded pet/family member and not a menace to society , and even perhaps do some agility with her later on when she is mature.

By one on one, i guess i mean, more specific help to the problem at hand, rather than keep training the same way without any ideas for dogs where it is not working, not giving suggestions etc. Not a hands on chunk of time just for me. I am a horse rider and have always gone to instructors who are able to adapt to the horse at hand rather than have only one method that they try fit every horse to. But then, I will agree that you get far more information and progress far more quickly with a private lesson than you ever could in a group lesson.

Thankyou again for your help and advice.

Edited November 16, 2008 by RosieFT

[Erny]

RosieFT, you are more than welcome. Just don't despair too much. At the beginning, training dogs seems oh so complicated - what with all the words and commands, and the when to praise and when to not, blah blah. But with a bit of clarity to the instruction you're receiving I expect you'll find that one day very soon all those pennies will drop and you'll be looking back wondering how come you didn't get it straight away, so simple will it seem to you.

It will all come together - whether it be with the school you're with or another, or with a private lesson or two or three, along with of course that enthusiasm and dedication . Be assured of that.

Let us know how you get on .

Cheers!

Erny

ETA : Cute little Foxie btw . Wiley little critters. Too smart for their own boots sometimes . I've worked with a few of them. Clever little munchkins they are. Love his one brown leg. I had to look twice as at first I thought he was wearing a white vest/jacket of sorts, but it is his markings it seems. Cute!

Edited November 16, 2008 by Erny

[Guest RosieFT]

Thanks - it is a brown leg! she is gorgeous and a great dog to have around, fitted into our family (including with our cat!) so well and is such a lovely, fun, friendly dog with a real zest for life.

Just have to ad the training thing seems quite easy at home, then i take her out LOL . Oh and thinks she is oh so clever, now she thinks if she lies down for everything really quickly that must be the right thing to get a reward. LOL

[BigBen]

I sounds a bit like clicker training... only using a verbal marker... In clicker training the 'click' ends the behaviour... So if you want your dog to sit or stay for longer you delay the 'click'..