Training An Adolescent Puppy

[Drumbeat]

I would appreciate some advice on obediance training our 8 month old Lakeland Terrier pup. We attend a large training club weekly and were doing quite nicely until about 6 weeks ago. She has always been easily distracted by other dogs, birds etc but still maintained enough focus in class to move up a couple of stages.

However, she has reached the dreaded stage I was warned about and although she will still happily respond to commands and training in the house and garden, she turns into a different dog when outside and prefers to ignore me I have tried various food rewards and squeaky toys but she'd much rather watch what's going on around her.

I have been looking at taking her to obediance training with smaller classes but there is nothing running now until January and the club we attend is also closed over Dec and Jan

She is a lovely natured dog and loves everybody, do I just need to perservere until she grows out of the selective deafness or is there something we can add to our training to make ourselves more interesting than the distractions ?

[wuffles]

Sorry, no advice from me but to say... grow out of it? Our boy is 3 and I'm pretty sure he's never going to grow out of it

Edited November 14, 2008 by wuffles

[Just Midol]

This is where neutralisation would have been beneficial.

[Drumbeat]

Where have all the trainers gone, i was really hoping to get some advise here

Maybe I need to say something contraversial, that usually gets plenty of responses!

[Kavik]

Have you done training specifically on focus? Can you get her to look at you for a certain amount of time? Clickers are one way to do this, I also spit food, easier with a big dog though

[WalandLibby]

The principles according to which dogs learn are close to universal, regardless of life-stage. Basically, what is punished occurs less frequently in future, and what is rewarded occurs more frequently. The challenge is that what we think about whether we are rewarding or punishing is not important - the dog gets to tell us whether particular behaviours have been rewarded or punished. And it is not only us that rewards and punishes behaviour - the environment also does this.

So anyway, the challenge with dogs, like terriers, who are very passionate about (and consequently highly rewarded by) things in the environment, is to find things that are more powerful rewards than those things (usually better food), and to find ways (and it can require creativity and a fair bit of thought) to use those things in the environment that interest your dog as rewards. If they are things that you cannot humanely and with no drama or stress prevent your dog accessing, then I wouldn't do this (getting into an argument with the dog will be quite counter-productive and really bad for your relationship, both in terms of how you feel about your dog, and how she feels about you).

Back to practical training - I'd focus on attention almost exclusively for the time being - for me this is far and away the most important thing, and almost all the basic management type things that are important for a dog can be developed from it. When you are about to let her off the lead, ask her to look at you first, then let her go when she does. When she wants to go through a (closed) door, do the same. Actually, any time (within reason) she asks you for something by making eye contact, reward her by giving her permission to do it. The goal is to teach her that by engaging with you and asking nicely, she can have what she wants.

That she works well for you at home is great. Keep it up. Shear bulk of good responses to cues which are then rewarded, wherever they were done, tend to generalise.

Increasing the distance between you and something she finds so interesting she forgets about you is also really important. When she engages with you perhaps you will be able to let her back to the other thing as her reward.

You've chosen a terrier breed, so I guess you don't expect her to think that you are the only interesting thing in her world. I think terriers are good for our souls, mine certainly taught me to value what animals think and what they need from their lives, and that this was just as important in our relationship as what I wanted. I'd also suggest that you think of her adolescence as a time when she is learning so much about the world that it takes up a lot of her attention, rather than focussing on the fact that she is ignoring you.

Edited November 15, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Guest RosieFT]

Drumbeat - sorry to say it, but I am glad to find a fellow terrier lover in focus lah lah land when at obedience :-) . I think you mentioned it in one of my threads too.

At home she is great, also at local oval I now can do training, but take her to obedience and my foxie is much more interested in the sights and smells of what is going on around her! Her stationary work is ok to good, but not to the point of repetition that the instructors seem to want to have, but if we start walking... sigh.. last week i got a bit frustrated and got a bit teary (very embarrassing!) because I try so hard with her at home and on our local walks, but at obedience it flies out the window and she is a pulling/sniffing freak on a lead! It doesn't help that we, like you, are in a huge class and the instructor has not actually offered any help or advice about it - only when i approached her after class clearly a bit upset about the whole thing. I asked her if it was actually worth anyones while for me to keep bringing her, but she seemed to think it was. I am not so sure. She feels she will meet and treat the dogs like a 'loose pack' and become more accepting and 'ho hum' about the whole thing. Personally, I am not so sure. Personally I am wondering if completely food reward oriented programs with no correction may be a little unrealistic with a terrier who cares not for food when there are other things around.

I too do all the focus games at home and she is SUPER smart at learning a new 'trick' , too bloody quick to think she knows it all and offers it up, but still is not super on a lead.

My latest 'strategy' is to carry a ball with me, which i bring out at odd times (generally after some good work) or to get her attention on 'me' when I have lost her and then i put it away. She is starting to become a little too ball obsessed though so i don't know how wise this is.

So far, the hose still trumps everything, but if no hose about, a ball will trump all else. She ran for a willy wag tail towards the road in our front garden yesterday and did not respond to me until i said 'where's your ball!" .. she did a 180 turn and came running straight to me. Which is good, and also terrible that she will ignore me, but at least i have an emergency recall now! hmm i know, not good.

I think I will keep going for the socialising, working with distractions, and just try not to get disapointed with the complete lack of focus with lead walking.

I feel your pain!

As an aside, can anyone elaborate on how to extend the 'watch' time? She will meet my eyes, now for maybe 2 seconds, then look away. Except with food bowl, then she will keep watching me till I say "ok".

Also, I have taught her the 'touch' game with her nose, but am concerned that 'watch' and 'touch' may sound too similar to a dog? .. i have been saying 'watching' to make it different. But would watch suffice?

Sorry to jump onto your thread, but am hoping to share in any advice people can give!

[4 Paws]

I also own a fox terrier and have just started taking him to obedience after putting my 2 german shepherds through.I think one thing that has helped me with my foxies focus is the triangle of temtation programme.He is quite good at focus now compared to what he was like before starting this programme

[WalandLibby]

Sounds like you guys are having quite similar issues.

She feels she will meet and treat the dogs like a 'loose pack' and become more accepting and 'ho hum' about the whole thing. Personally, I am not so sure.

I'm not sure either. But it's probably better than isolating her from other dogs during this important time of her life.

Personally I am wondering if completely food reward oriented programs with no correction may be a little unrealistic with a terrier who cares not for food when there are other things around.

There are moments in every reward trainer's life (imo) where it comes down to 'it might be more effective to punish my dog at this time, but do I really want to do it to her?' and only the individual can answer that for themself. But having been there myself, I'd say little terriers are not easy to correct successfully. And if they're not paying attention to you when you haven't got a history of correcting them, they are more likely to be actively avoiding and trying to block you out if you start correcting them. I think it really undermines their trust and respect in you. Fortunately I think they are pretty forgiving dogs. But there is no point in offering food again and again to a dog who is telling you it isn't rewarding for her at that time. Your instructor must know how to reward with other things.

My latest 'strategy' is to carry a ball with me, which i bring out at odd times (generally after some good work) or to get her attention on 'me' when I have lost her and then i put it away. She is starting to become a little too ball obsessed though so i don't know how wise this is.

If you're worried about ball obsession, only use it as a reward. When you use it to get her attention, do you then let her play with it? (It's not quite clear from the post.) Sounds like this might be the best reward you have available to use with her, and I'd make full use of it - it's a wonderful reward although not quite so convenient to use as food. My Dinky wasn't especially into balls (I taught her to play with them by using food rewards once she was adult, but there was no hint of obsession). So it wasn't an especially powerful reward for her, but my younger dog (Koolie) had that potential. I have rarely if ever thrown a toy more than 3 times in succession for him to make sure that he didn't get too obnoxious in his demands to play. We bulk out games with tug and catch me (all of which can also be used as rewards).

terrible that she will ignore me

No, perfectly normal.

As an aside, can anyone elaborate on how to extend the 'watch' time? She will meet my eyes, now for maybe 2 seconds, then look away. Except with food bowl, then she will keep watching me till I say "ok".

I guess this is because you've practised it with the food bowl and in the place/s where you feed her more than other places. And have spent more time working on duration - 'you only get the food when you've watched me for x duration'. Duration is best built through gradual withholding of reward for longer and through multiple rewards - one go, then another, so a dog learns that reward is not a cue to disengage. Interesting, she would only be doing this for food if she actually liked and wanted the food - she's working for it in this context.

I'm guessing that you are using hand signals of some kind with watch and touch? If so she's probably responding to them rather than to the words.

Edited November 15, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Guest RosieFT]

4 paws - i did read that TOT article and was wondering about it helping general focus. So thanks for that. Drumbeat - have you tried the TOT?

WandL - I am going to keep going for the socialising aspect. Working with other dogs around and focusing with distractions. The instructors have not really been that helpful to be honest except to tell me to keep trying different food... which I have. Just to clarify, food works great when at home, and now to a large extent when at obedience. But if she becomes disinterested in the training (it does go for an hour), or finds something more interesting.. then it holds no reward value at all.

With the ball, i will let her play with it for a bit at training as a re-focusing tool, or as a reward. It can however, affect a couple of dogs around us, which makes me feel guilty - it is not as though i am throwing it or anything!! But t hey see the ball and get a bit unfocused on their handlers. I usually do it in a 'free the dog' point though, not during training.

I think it is too late with the ball obession but it is handy as an excersize tool. Footballs, soccerballs, tennis balls.. you name it she wants it. If the ball is around she is becoming less and less interested in other dogs etc.

I have no hand signal for "watching".... what can you use? i can do the 'watching' with food in each hand moving up and down each side of her head... for dinner, she sits waits and looks at me, and i release her with an "ok". I started with just a quick look, then release and she is slowly building it up by herself. As if staring at me will make the "ok" come faster. She has linked that with the release. With the other 'watching' I have not been releasing her, if i think about it. the 'good' and treat does break the stare but i slip it in when i feel she is about to break - if that makes sense.

If she breaks before i want her to, do i just re ask 'watching' and no treat? and slowly eek out the seconds? She links 'good' with a reward, so if i tell her 'good' she looks for reward and breaks eye contact. that is from the club obedience training. So that makes 'good' the marker word, correct? Okay is my release word. But they don't use a release for each activity at obedience which i am a little confused about... but that would be for another thread, I have bunged up this one for Drumbeat now! sorry.

[WalandLibby]

I have no hand signal for "watching".... what can you use? i can do the 'watching' with food in each hand moving up and down each side of her head... for dinner, she sits waits and looks at me, and i release her with an "ok". I started with just a quick look, then release and she is slowly building it up by herself. As if staring at me will make the "ok" come faster. She has linked that with the release. With the other 'watching' I have not been releasing her, if i think about it. the 'good' and treat does break the stare but i slip it in when i feel she is about to break - if that makes sense.

If she breaks before i want her to, do i just re ask 'watching' and no treat? and slowly eek out the seconds? She links 'good' with a reward, so if i tell her 'good' she looks for reward and breaks eye contact. that is from the club obedience training. So that makes 'good' the marker word, correct? Okay is my release word. But they don't use a release for each activity at obedience which i am a little confused about...

Even if you don't actually have a hand signal for watch, I suspect you have a distinctive way of moving your body when you do it, which is probably a more naturally salient (sorry if I'm slipping into trainer-speak - just means that it is meaningful and noticeable to the dog) than using only a word. I point at my eye, with my hand beside my temple (although I'm not actually concerned whether he looks me in the face, only that he is engaged with me.) But I know that I also, without particularly intending to, look at my dog's face, lean very slightly forward and bend my head forward etc. All these things are noticeable to the dog, and will be part of the cue. If you were aiming for competition such multi-layered signalling would be considered very wrong, but for real-life training, I think all these things help dogs and let owners be a little bit more relaxed. Actually I think it's a good idea to teach dogs to respond to the body language I've described above deliberately.

In another post a few days ago I wrote about how in dogs with long narrow heads, their response to movement is difficult for the dog to control (and their close, detail vision is relatively poor). Foxies and Lakies are a classic eg of this - to perceive is to respond, as they say of Foxies. So I would think about using hand signals when you can (although if you try to teach both hand and word signal together, you'll probably find that she hasn't even noticed the word you're trying to teach. I realised after 2 yrs of training Dinky that she had no idea what she should do in response to the verbal cue 'sit'. ).

But anyway, Rosie's response will tell you whether she can tell the difference between the 2 cues. I use 'look', which I don't think sounds like anything else particularly.

There are about as many different ways to teach most behaviours as there are trainers, so I'm not criticising anyone who does this differently, but this is what I would probably do to get more duration, I'd just keep treating without marking for as long as the dog stays attentive. It's not really going to add anything to the situation to mark here, because she is probably going to stay in the position anyway (and you aren't rewarding when she isn't actually watching you). The marker is most useful when you cannot get the reward to the dog at the 'correct' moment. Soft verbal praise won't do any harm, and it will develop/strengthen praise as a conditioned reinforcer. (One of the goals in training for me is for the dog to think that, regardless of what they understand of it, their owner talking to them is interesting, and to engage with the owner when they do this. This is one important aspect of teaching that.) Once the behaviour is a little more developed, letting the dog look away and get up when it chooses, and then rewarding it when it looks back and re-engages with you (both by asking it to, and by letting it choose to do so itself) is the next stage. At that stage I would mark the looking back, as that is a distinct 'moment' of behaviour that you would like her to repeat.

I also believe in rewarding the dog for watching what is going on around them, while staying self-controlled. Obviously they have to be in a state of mind that they can take the reward (and if they aren't, then they probably aren't giving you any behaviour that is particularly rewardable anyway). Again, increasing distance might be needed, but it can usually shortened then pretty quickly, if it is done systematically. (On that, I believe that if a way of teaching is an effective way, then the dog will learn quickly. If you aren't seeing change in behaviour and that the dog is responsive and 'getting it' (you can see when they understand) within a session or 2, I'd stop and re-evaluate.

I used to do something similar with my Foxie to what you describe with marking when you think she's about to break. (I've made every mistake in the book.) I realised after quite a long time of training that I was marking her for being disengaged. If she's about to break, let that one go. Only reward while she's really acting interested in you. Otherwise she doesn't have anyway of knowing what you actually want her to do. (I also found with my girl that I used to just try to react too fast, because she moved so fast, and could disengage so quickly, and that meant I was often marking things that I didn't want to, in almost all parts of our training. Bob Bailey (one of the great trainers) gives trainers permission to not reward if they mark incorrectly. Realising that the dog can't 'see' the behaviour if the rewards aren't given according to clear criteria, helped me learn to control my anxiety to mark when I really shouldn't have.)

I wonder whether getting Rosie to look away from a food treat, to you, to get the reward might be stressing her out. I think this might not be helping build her 'food drive' (as she's learning to show less interest/attention to the food than she actually wants to).

Edited November 15, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Guest RosieFT]

Thankyou WandL, lots to digest there! I use hand signals for sit, down and stay, and yes, when i say "watching" i turn my head to her so it would be different.

The moving food either side of head, and yet focus of dog on my eyes, is from obedience class.

With treating without marking, surely the dog will break focus when you give food? I will have to try it!

Thanks again for your time and great tips! :-)

[Drumbeat]

Well today I have to eat my words. I've just returned from training where Izzy performed so well we were promoted to the next level

It's amazing, she was like a different dog - still very interested in the other dogs but at least I could re-direct her focus on to me. I seriously considered not going today so I'm glad I did.

So Rosie FT I hope this inspires you to keep going (I definately don't mind you using this thread, I'm interested in all the suggestions)

One of the things we had to demonstrate today was whether the dog responded to the verbal sit command when they weren't sitting next to us - Izzy did it perfectly so I was very proud

[dogdude]

The problem in the first place was probably caused by the club style of training. When some dogs sit around idle too long (hour long class?), they can decide to entertain themselves.

They become fixated on moving objects (namely other dogs), which is far more entertaining than block heeling and army style commands while trekking all over the park.

Too much "doggy play" can cause the same thing. A combination of both can be worse.

Have you looked into training using prey drive?

What level of training do you want to achieve?

[Drumbeat]

The problem in the first place was probably caused by the club style of training. When some dogs sit around idle too long (hour long class?), they can decide to entertain themselves.

Yes, sometimes this can be a problem. We had a different trainer yesterday who was more relaxed and interspersed the sits, drops, stays into the walking exercises which was much better.

Have you looked into training using prey drive?

I have been trying to read up on it but haven't found out very much

What level of training do you want to achieve?

I'm not looking at trialling, would just like a welltrained pet.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Drumbeat

[WalandLibby]

With treating without marking, surely the dog will break focus when you give food? I will have to try it!

I guess if you're after a continuous intense stare into your face, yes, the dog won't maintain that while it eats. But it will probably come back to it very quickly after it finishes the treat. And that is perhaps the most important aspect of this behaviour - that the dog learn to choose to come back to the behaviour when it's attention is briefly distracted elsewhere.

Personally first up, I'm just trying to get the dog to recognise that when s/he hears the word, food follows (in other words, the learning that is going on is mainly classical conditioning - like Pavlov and his dogs). The startle and look response to the cue then becomes something like our response to a telephone ringing - so meaningful, because of what it represents, that it's almost impossible not to respond to it. Then I move to developing duration, which requires the cue to become operant (the dog learns to make deliberate choices in order to get the reward) - it tells the dog 'if you look at me, at some point you will get the reward'. But like I said, the attention I'm after and that I reward is not an intense stare, but rather a general state of watching and listening (and wagging. :-)

Edited November 18, 2008 by WalandLibby