Interesting Question For Any Trainer!

[lovemesideways]

So I've been mulling over this idea for a few days so I thought I would post it and see what the general reaction is.

Now, sin binning or a "time out" is basically removing the dog from a situation and putting them away for a moment. (Someone feel free to give me a better description because I’m sleepy and this one sounds lame even to me)

For example, you’re playing with your puppy and he becomes overly excited. Your response to this is to give a sharp, No, when the puppy tries to bite you in excitement. Take the puppy and place him in a separate room with the door shut. You take him out again after a few minutes, play again; he becomes overly excited again, same consequence. So eventually the puppy realises, This behaviour equals the play time stopping and having to go away, but This behaviour means I get to stay right here and play all night!.

Now in the NDTF course I’m doing (National Dog Training Federation for those who don’t know) there was this whole idea of stopping your training when a dogs working really "hot" (hot meaning, High level of drive). It wasn’t really talked about a lot, but from what I understood, a example of the technique would be, your training a scent detection dog, he’s doing really well, very high drive mode, so you stop while he’s "hot" and put him away. This keeps him wanting more and more, increasing the drive.

My question. Wouldn’t this work in almost the same way as sin binning a dog. The dog would realise eventually that, when he’s doing this certain behaviour a lot, then he gets taken and put away, but when he doesn’t, he gets to stay out longer?

Now I’ve never trained a dog with the second method, it’s just an idea I heard talked about. So anyone who has, I look forward to your thoughts!

(I hope this actually makes sense to everyone and I don’t sound like a sleepy ranting crazy person)

[squeak]

Nope, you don't sound like a crazy person to me, as I have actually been pondering a similar question recently - not so much the sin binning part, but the part of quitting whilst your dog is enjoying training (I have a problem keeping training sessions short!)

The only thing that I can come up with is that there is a difference between sin binning and training. Sin binning, I would punish the behaviour first (even if only a verbal correction) and then remove any further chance of reward. With training, you are rewarding the behaviour you want - then stopping training when that reward is still valuable for the dog. I can tell you from experience, train too long, any reward loses value for the dog and dog becomes bored and disinterested.

Not sure if it helps, but with one of my dogs, I had basically bored her with training. The last few weeks, I have been focussing on very high rates of reinforcement and very, very short training sessions (and yes, quitting whilst she was still loving it). Now seems to be a changed dog who wants to train - though she still has the attention span of a gnat. I have started pondering the question that you have posed because of my other dog - who loves training, though like any dog tires and bores when I push his limits (he is a much newer addition to our pack, so I haven't learnt to "read" him as well). For him, it is not so much the length of time that we train for, but the mental difficulty of what I am asking him to do.

My only suggestion would be that you use a different area for your "time outs" to what you use for containing your dog before/after training. If I remember correctly from Steve's lecture, his philosophy is that training should be the highlight of the dog's day, so the dog cannot wait to start training, and everything else is boring in comparison. And quitting whilst the dog is still keen is meant to help keep this enthusiasm (sp).

I would suggest that you pose the question to the NDTF forum & see what the trainers/lecturers say. That way I get to see there answer too

[Dory the Doted One]

I get the sin-binning thing...I just do it different...if I'm rough housing and rough housing gets too rough....I just stop, walk away and ignore them until they can play nice. I have a dog that has issues with being away from me, putting her in another room would only traumatise her.

Actually, I teach my dogs to have on/off buttons as a GAME we play, is how I look at it. Same concept...different term. (Jargon annoys me.)

I'm trying to stretch my brain back to the days when I competed...I think as my dogs got keen I just kept training short sharp and sweet...or just threw different things at them, changed the scenario to keep them interested, rather than stop.

I would try to build peak performance for the day of trial...if it looked like we were peaking too early, I woud back off training...still train, but do something else and then test the waters on the exercises I was trying to peak in short bursts a couple of times during the week depending on the dog to see if we needed tweaking. If the dog looked like hitting the bored button early on...I would cut it short and play...play...play...then quit for the day. Go out the next day and do a different thing...or just do more play stuff. Boredom meant I was getting too serious, rather than the dog losing it. I found games would get us back to being motivated and remembering at the end of the day, we really wanted to have FUN. (Score well..yeah...win...that would be GREAT...but FUN 1st and foremost.)

[JulesP]

I don't know how your course is teaching it but if my dog (or horse) works really well then I do stop the training But it is not the same as sin binning. Sin Binning would be a no talking, march to the room with a chuck inside and a door slam! Finishing training because the dog was good would involve a very happy run to the jack pot box and lots and lots of treats and much excitment and pats from me. As I train before dinner & breaky it would also mean that the dog gets fed. So happy dog that wants to train. I guess it works as mine are at the gate going nuts at training time.

[poodlefan]

It wasn’t really talked about a lot, but from what I understood, a example of the technique would be, your training a scent detection dog, he’s doing really well, very high drive mode, so you stop while he’s "hot" and put him away.

In an agility context you wouldn't put the dog away - you'd stop the training when the dog was performing according to your criteria and REWARD it with a game etc.

[lovemesideways]

Yeah now that I think further on it, Sin binning isnt just the removal from the situation, its also the lead up, eg. the silence, the chuck into another room, the door slam.

And the stopping while a dog is hot technique makes sense if you make a huge fuss over the dog and reward with a game like poodlefan said.

What I saw was just a simple pat and then putting the dog away with no further fuss.

[Lablover]

Sin binning is difficult as timing has be very very very good and be consistent. Also related to age etc. Dogs are experts reading body language. IMHO, people need to keep their mouths closed more often, at least keep cues/commands simple.

[Erny]

What I saw was just a simple pat and then putting the dog away with no further fuss.

You're referring to the scent training you witnessed? I wasn't there, but did the dog finish on a 'win' and did the dog receive his/her reward/s for that? Usually that is a game of tug or a 'jackpot' of food reward, depending on what the dog prefers.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Erny

[lovemesideways]

What I saw was just a simple pat and then putting the dog away with no further fuss.

You're referring to the scent training you witnessed? I wasn't there, but did the dog finish on a 'win' and did the dog receive his/her reward/s for that? Usually that is a game of tug or a 'jackpot' of food reward, depending on what the dog prefers.

Yeah thats what I was refering too.(how did you know?) He didnt get anything that I saw. Maybe a single treat, but no jackpot, no big fuss or game. Just a put away. It was the very first time, and he did it perfectly so they put him away straight away.

This is where I got the idea of a dog connecting this more with punishment than reward.

[leopuppy04]

What I saw was just a simple pat and then putting the dog away with no further fuss.

You're referring to the scent training you witnessed? I wasn't there, but did the dog finish on a 'win' and did the dog receive his/her reward/s for that? Usually that is a game of tug or a 'jackpot' of food reward, depending on what the dog prefers.

Yeah thats what I was refering too.(how did you know?) He didnt get anything that I saw. Maybe a single treat, but no jackpot, no big fuss or game. Just a put away. It was the very first time, and he did it perfectly so they put him away straight away.

This is where I got the idea of a dog connecting this more with punishment than reward.

I don't really know what the exact circumstance that you are talking about, but once a dog knows the behaviour pretty well - our body language and even that pat on the head is reward enough for the dog to know it's done a good job

For me - if my dog ends on a win - my body language is completely different to that of when I want to disconnect from them :cool:

[Lozi]

I'm currently training my dog in scent detection, for my assessment for the same course (NDTF). When i finish with my little girl, to other people it probably doesn't look like i'm giving much reward at all. But just my getting down at her level and giving her a bit of a scruff made her start prancing around like she'd made the find of the century! but while still training, i give alot of reward and reinforcement.

on the other hand, when "sin-binning", for example when she jumps up on me and scratches, i give a firm "argh!" and just turn and walk back inside. I don't put her away, as such, simply because i don't have anywhere to put her away at the moment! but just me not giving her attention, seems to do the trick. She only shows that particular behaviour when shes REALLY REALLY amped up, and competing with the other dogs for attention.

[corvus]

Just a thought, but perhaps the way you quit could also be a factor. You could quit leaving the dog hot with no way to deal with that but to cool down on their own in time, or you could cool them down yourself and extend the general niceness of it all but in a different way. On the odd occassion I train, I generally don't just leave the animal hanging. With my dogs, if they are still revved up for example, I might play a bit of tug, then sit down with them and give them a massage until they are happy to lie down and just hang loose. If I train with my hare, it depends on his mood. If he's really into it and comfortable, then normally he would let me give him a head rub. I will put the food away and maybe give him one last one for free and he generally takes that as a signal that it's time for his head rub and then I will leave. If he's not so into it and is feeling a bit jumpy and took a while to come over for his treats, then I keep it very short and leave him with no pats. He often finds pats a bit too intense if he's jumpy and would prefer I just left him, or let him sniff my fingers and leave it at that. I guess what I'm saying is that I would listen to my animals and try not to leave them hanging. I'm not sure if that affects their drive next time it comes to training or not, as I don't train regularly.

[raycha08]

I use that sort of training in my horses actually. when i'm working with them, i'll ask them for just a little more than they gave the day before, as soon as they show me the behaviour(they are "hot") i end the session. It's like youv'e done exactly what i wanted at that very moment, let's stop, that's the reward for the behaviour, stop and have some reassurance (pat). does that make sense?