raz Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I agree with the sentiment from that poster - no issue but i reckon that is why the OP has not returned, especially if the pups did NOT pull through Probably a good thing for the poster if the pups died an agonising death without treatment if they do not return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolving Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 why did snakes in Australia eveolve to have such potent venom? Surely they dont need that much to kill a mouse or frog. Being such a dry country you can not rely on your next meal walking past you. You need to kill quickly and efficiently as your dinner may be long gone by the time they die. If a frog manages to get into the water you may very well have lost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Sure for sure but why need enough venom in one bite to kill 250,000 mice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Sure for sure but why need enough venom in one bite to kill 250,000 mice? There was something in new scientist recently about a guy who reckons some mutations are the result of a relaxation of selection pressures, in fact he thinks that humans are just a mutant ape that didn't result from any specific selection. So perhaps the stronger vemon is linked to a beneficial gene and therefore 'hitched a ride' so to speak, or just wasn't detrimental so no reason for it to be selected out. Back to topic it's not looking great for these poor pups, unfortunately a lot of people put money before the welfare of the animal, that may not be the case in this instance but it's common unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Sure for sure but why need enough venom in one bite to kill 250,000 mice? There was something in new scientist recently about a guy who reckons some mutations are the result of a relaxation of selection pressures, in fact he thinks that humans are just a mutant ape that didn't result from any specific selection. So perhaps the stronger vemon is linked to a beneficial gene and therefore 'hitched a ride' so to speak, or just wasn't detrimental so no reason for it to be selected out. Back to topic it's not looking great for these poor pups, unfortunately a lot of people put money before the welfare of the animal, that may not be the case in this instance but it's common unfortunately. That is exactly right, some traits we see aren't adaptive, they are just there and have neutral selective value, but are linked to something they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I agree with the sentiment from that poster - no issue but i reckon that is why the OP has not returned, especially if the pups did NOT pull through Probably a good thing for the poster if the pups died an agonising death without treatment if they do not return. I ave to agree with you Raz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Numerous studies have been done on the evolution of elapid venom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Sure for sure but why need enough venom in one bite to kill 250,000 mice? So that everytime you kill one, you know you have saved 250,000 mice? Here's a math question. If you kill 1000 mice per day for 30 days on your property, and 2000 mice (approx) escape, and a snake can kill 250,000 mice, how many snakes are living on your property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Sure for sure but why need enough venom in one bite to kill 250,000 mice? So that everytime you kill one, you know you have saved 250,000 mice? Here's a math question. If you kill 1000 mice per day for 30 days on your property, and 2000 mice (approx) escape, and a snake can kill 250,000 mice, how many snakes are living on your property? Only dead ones if you have a mice plague, Jeddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrin Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) How very sad for those pups. When we have a pet we are responsible for them. They are like our children. One of the family. If i could turn the clock back and save my dog from a painful death then i would. The thought that he died alone and in pain makes me sick. I would have given anything to at least hold him in his final moments. This thread just makes me Edited November 13, 2008 by perrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 It wasnt your fault, Perrin. Your dog was already gone when you found him. If he'd been alive I'm sure you would have taken him straight to a Vet for treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) Don't beat your self up perrin Edited November 13, 2008 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 RazOnly dead ones if you have a mice plague, Jeddles If they're dead, they can't be living? Can they? Snakes, Jeddles - Snakes. You've obviously killed all the snakes if you need to kill 1000 mice a day for 30 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Perrin - it was not your fault, no more than Barks was mine. We all know that if you had found your boy you would have taken him straight to the vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj88 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Your dogs should have been put on AV. What kind of vet would tell you that it was only a baby snake so the pups would be OK. Baby elapids are venomous.I hope for the sake of the pups they pull through. she just said she couldnt afford the AV - the vet probably advised to put them on it but not everyone can just fork out 4000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Your dogs should have been put on AV. What kind of vet would tell you that it was only a baby snake so the pups would be OK. Baby elapids are venomous.I hope for the sake of the pups they pull through. she just said she couldnt afford the AV - the vet probably advised to put them on it but not everyone can just fork out 4000 And if that's the case then the dogs should have been pts rather than left in agony, I think is the point people are trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj88 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 2 of mine were in intensive care for over a week and cost quite a bit more than that, Caz. It's not the AV that costs that much. From memory the vials were about $600 each. It's all the other treatment that adds up. Just part and parcel of dog ownership. Then there's the lengthy rehab if they survive. Over 70% of animals not treated with AV from snake bite in this country die a horrible death.Seriously, if you had a child envenomated by a snake and didnt have private health insurance, would you just say - I dont want to pay for it so wont bother? It's the responsibility of animal owners to provide correct veterinary treatment for their sick or injured animals! Snake envenomation in dogs is horrific! Holy cow, that is exy then. I know the local vets here wont treat with anti-venom unless payment is up front. Which is kind of hard if you dont have a credit card or that amount in the bank. To be honest, I dont have $4000 (just thinking if my two dogs got bitten) anywhere, so my dogs wouldnt get treated if I had to pay upfront. Does pet insurance cover this kind of thing? That might be an option for those who cant pay upfront. Oh, and if it was for my child, I would hope the hospitals would treat first, and you could pay up later. I would sell my car if it came to that. Im a vet nurse and when owners dont want to pay for treatments and preventions (heartworm, desexing blah blah blah) i get really mad because it is their responsibility. But when something like this happens i can sympathise with them. Not everyone buys an animal thinking the worse will happen, thinking they will have to fork out 4000 bucks. Not everyone has that much money in the back and not everyone has a credit card. With the prices of mortgages atm and fuel it is very hard to pay that much money. I certainly dont have $4000 in the back, i have a house to pay for! If this happened to my dogs it would be different because i work at the clinic and so payment wouldnt be an issue i would be allowed to do installments - not all clinics allow this. Its not being harsh its just we have to pay for those drugs and treatments and pathology and it comes out of our pocket and stuffs up cashflow. Although our main interest is in saving the animals, it is still a business and still has to work. So i can understand this, it is horrible, but i sympathise. Most hospitals will let you pay over time - they wont just let people die because the parent/patient cant pay up front. In response to your question about insurance. Most clinics allow GE credit, which means they pay us, then you pay them in payment installments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj88 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Any Vet worth their salt would treat a snake bite victim first and then sort out the funds side of it later on. obviously you dont have a business head. Yes vets care and wont to help the patient but its not that simple, it still is THEIR business and it is still is THEIR ass on the line. If a vet did that to every single person that baught their animal in then they would be up to their heads in debt. The business then uses their anti venom and then they have to buy the venom the next day to have it on hand so then thats out of their pocket. Show me a vet clinic that will do this up front, without GE credit, insurance or anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Im a vet nurse and when owners dont want to pay for treatments and preventions (heartworm, desexing blah blah blah) i get really mad because it is their responsibility. But when something like this happens i can sympathise with them. Not everyone buys an animal thinking the worse will happen, thinking they will have to fork out 4000 bucks. Not everyone has that much money in the back and not everyone has a credit card. With the prices of mortgages atm and fuel it is very hard to pay that much money. I certainly dont have $4000 in the back, i have a house to pay for! If this happened to my dogs it would be different because i work at the clinic and so payment wouldnt be an issue i would be allowed to do installments - not all clinics allow this. Its not being harsh its just we have to pay for those drugs and treatments and pathology and it comes out of our pocket and stuffs up cashflow. Although our main interest is in saving the animals, it is still a business and still has to work. So i can understand this, it is horrible, but i sympathise. Most hospitals will let you pay over time - they wont just let people die because the parent/patient cant pay up front. In response to your question about insurance. Most clinics allow GE credit, which means they pay us, then you pay them in payment installments. I didnt have $10,000 cash lying around when my dogs were envenomated either. I had the option of finding it or to PTS - not to just take them home. There's more to this story than meets the eye. Besides - AV does NOT cost $4000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj88 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Your Vet MUST get these dogs on anti-venom ;) Any Vet worth their salt would treat a sanke bite victim first and then sort out the funds side of it later on. GE Credit has a loan scheme to pay for Vet bills. That is why all of our dogs have PetPlan Health Insurance.We are only on pensions but we asked these dogs to come into our lives so it is our responsibilty to look after then. I would hock anything I could if needed $$ for Vet treatment.I also have Private Hospital cover for me too. I would rather live on mince and noodles than rely on the Public System . For two dogs costs us $70 per month and it covers up to $14,000 per year per dog( less $100 excess) and PetPlan has deals with a lot of the Vets for them to be billed directly so that the owner does not have to find the massive $$ Prays going their way. Sadly Colleen, the vets (around here) actually state that payment must be made on the day, or they dont treat your animal (for anything). I hate them with a passion, and now go elsewhere (which is pretty hard with my panic attacks ) because of their "money over an animals life" attitude. Okay.....my little rant. I spent thousands with these vets over an 18 month period (many years ago now) as I had a horse with cancer. But then I rang up once to tell them my cat was ill and I was bringing him down (he couldnt stand up, wouldnt eat) and they automatically said "payment on the day"....I was pretty well flat broke at the time, so asked if I could pay 3 days later (my payday) and they said NO. I pleaded with them, and in the end they said to bring down something of value to hold in their safe until I made payment. Not that I have anything of value (car cant fit in their bloody safe), but I had a piece of jewellery that was left to me, so I took that down. Signed a form etc to say I would pay on certain day, and had left the item there as collateral or some BS. The cat didnt make it through the night, but they didnt bother to tell me until the next morning that he had died. :p (and after all the blood tests, x-rays, and being put on a drip etc, they still didnt say why he died, but the blood tests showed liver enzymes were high) And they had the bloody cheek to ring me back and ask me if I wanted to fork out another $40 for them to dispose of the body, or to come and collect him. I cannot tell you how much I hate these particular vets, and their staff. They practice is a semi-rural area, and all they think about is bloody money. It makes my blood boil. Oops, sorry for hijacking the thread Jettica. Thats really horrible. I would hate to work there!!!!! some clinics do shit me We will allow payment plans to some clients and in certain circumstances (not all i must add) If people say i can pay tomorrow we normally let them (unless we know they dont pay) There are just lots of variables that will determine wether a clinic will allow payment plans or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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