FreeSpirit Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I have just recently had a professional trainer over to help with my doggy problem. She has a method where she uses her energy to control the dog, and using natural fibre leads and collars so the energy can flow. Check chains are out and so are short, sharp commands, along with brides, food, toys and rewards and only long low words can be used. If trying to train an energetic easily distracted dog should i be using methods using + and - reinforcement and punishment etc. Sorry for being vague on her methods but i don't really understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Did it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Did she seem to be able to do her work? Did your dog respond well to her methods? Did her being there help you? Energy projected can be a good tool- however I have not seen it used exclusively ... Positive energy- imagining ,no, SEEING the dog perform the task required.. feeling content and confident .. all this is good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 "...using natural fibre leads and collars so the energy can flow. " To be frank, I smell a crank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeSpirit Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Well i have only had her over once and we worked on walking. My dog walks fine by my side on a check chain and if she starts getting in front a simple 'argh' sets her right (usless there's a distraction) She used a slip cotton collar lead and had my dog and she did nothing but try and pull with her. Then she put my dog on the long cotton line and when the dog got to the end she would stand on it stopping the dog. i'm not sure if my dog will ever get it with this method? i guess her method works as she used to train movie animals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 All I can say is don't spend too much money finding out how long your dog might take to get it. It does sound terribly new age.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 You know...I believe in all this energy stuff...but even this smelt a bit hinky to me. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) I tend to go with the science of learning theory.....but then again I'm a scientist Interestingly though, when my Dally was a youngster (very energetic, easily distracted and exhausting!) I stopped using short, sharp commands (e.g. 'no') and just used long, low, drawn out commands such as 'steady' or 'leave' - it did work very well for him. It made ME feel automatically calmer and he picked up on that calmness - I honestly think it's that simple. He still goes absolutely ballistic when I walk in the door but just a gentle, drawn out 'steady' reminds him to keep those 4 paws on the ground whilst his tail just about wags itself off. When I do need to growl at him, it is very effective as it is rarely used. ETA: I should add, that if I'd only ever used 'steady' and never got out the steamed chicken....I'd still be trying to call my dog back Edited November 6, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I believe energy works in the way that if your feeling upset or angry, your dog can sense that. Your emotions cause certain reactions, so being calm means your dog will be calm. Being anxious will cause your dog to become anxious. Using energy to "control" a dog.. Sounds a bit Suss to me. Like shes trying to use normal training techniques and make them sound "unique" so she can get more moneys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Hmmmmmmmm.. doesn't sound brilliantly effective so far ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) I tend to go with the science of learning theory.....but then again I'm a scientist Interestingly though, when my Dally was a youngster (very energetic, easily distracted and exhausting!) I stopped using short, sharp commands (e.g. 'no') and just used long, low, drawn out commands such as 'steady' or 'leave' - it did work very well for him. It made ME feel automatically calmer and he picked up on that calmness - I honestly think it's that simple. He still goes absolutely ballistic when I walk in the door but just a gentle, drawn out 'steady' reminds him to keep those 4 paws on the ground whilst his tail just about wags itself off. When I do need to growl at him, it is very effective as it is rarely used. ETA: I should add, that if I'd only ever used 'steady' and never got out the steamed chicken....I'd still be trying to call my dog back I think it was in The Other End Of the Leash where the author talked about the almost universality of the sounds animal trainers tended to use. It didn't matter what language, what country, what animals... To slow down or calm or for static instructions...long, deep, slow commands...."staaaaayyyy", "steadyyyyy", "whoaaaaa" To speed up an animal, higher pitched, shorter, sharp sounds. Things like "bip, bip", "Chk, chk", repetitive sounds. It's an instinctive thing we use with animals and it seems to work.... oh heck - let me look it up... Yes, The Other End of the Leash - Patricia B MCConnell. She talks extensively about patterns of sounds and the 5 years she spent researching this area. "An analysis of 104 animal handlers and sixteen different languages found a universal use of short, rapidly repeated notes to speed animals up and single, continuous notes to slow or stop them" and a whole lot more fascinating info besides. I could quote from this section for hours. Edited November 6, 2008 by Luke W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 If the dog walks well on the lead on a chain, why would you try a different method when you wouldn't really need to. I am a firm believer in doing what works for that dog and wouldn't change something if i didn't need to. Is the trainer there to resolve a particular issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Interesting. Never heard of this method! Certainly dogs pick up on how you are feeling. If I am nervous or stressed my dogs work differently than if I am relaxed and calm. They react in different ways to this too. Diesel shuts down and won't work, Kaos takes advantage and gets more hyped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Sounds like the way Natural Horsemanship trainers speak. They are in effect using subtly applied, gentle negative reinforcement, although they will say that they are rewarding (in my observation, that is rarely what is actually driving the learning). Does the use of 'energy' involve controlling and using your body posture? I would think that is potentially quite communicative and rewarding or punitive to the dog, and so could be useful. One of the problems I have though with such trainers (and this trainer's apparent unwillingness to use more tangible rewards makes me think this might be the case with her) is that, although they are applying, often effectively, learning principles, because they don't explicitly understand them, they also do a lot of superstitious, unnecessary things as well. My alarm bells always go off when a trainer claims some special knowledge of how animals learn. Obviously we're learning more all the time about how and what they can learn, but the basic principles are close to universal. When trainers do this, again, it makes me think they aren't really seeing or understanding what they're doing. And if she can't really clearly explain to you how it works, then it's practical use for you is likely to be pretty limited. Edited November 6, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Double post. Edited November 6, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeSpirit Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Yes, she is there to fix a particular problem but she said she starts with teaching the dog to walk and listen to you first. And yes, she uses the body to control the dog as well, for instance, if the dog walks to fast she would put her body infront of the dog... She also has this thing where all the dogs of people she is training come together for 2hrs (about 20 dogs) every week to be part of 'a pack’. According to K9’s recent posting (think it was the socialisation one) this is not a good thing to do to those dogs as there would be dominance issues etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I do use body energy in both horse and dog training but this does sound a bit wacky. If you are not happy with the trainer - don't use her! It is important to find a style/system that you believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Yeah, I vote bullshit. Might work, but I wouldn't try it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Wow. I dont think I would be able to keep a straight face if I had a trainer come and try that new age approach on my dog. It would be all I could do to keep from laughing. Well, until I had to pay for it... Sorry for being cynical, but whilst I do believe that staying calm helps- I don't believe that that itself trains the dog, and it certainly doesn't sound like its working for your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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