What Should I Do/have Done?

[Guest RosieFT]

I was hoping to get some insight into a "problem" that manifested tonight for the first time.

I have recently (the past 4 walks) been implementing a loose lead walk method whereby I stop each time the lead goes taut and wait till she slackens the leash and I am just SO over the moon at her progress and have positively been grinning from ear to ear as this has been one of my main problems. I have been doing the change direction, 180 degree turn etc etc. training method told to me by obedience instructor and have never allowed her to just pull. But although it has worked to *some* degree, never very well as she is quite happy to just say, "ok then, lets go this way! ooh boy isn't it all so exciting!" . I also initially tried the stand and wait strategy but she just stood up on two legs for a really long time and never bothered about looking back etc.

Anyhoo, tonight I walked her to local DVD shop (where we have been once before quite awhile back) and for the first time in her short life, she freaked out. This dog has NEVER shown any fear, always wanting to say hi to all people, all dogs and check out all smells, NOTHING phases her - until now. ** just thought a bit more, hmm not true, i got caught out in a thunderstorm about 3 walks ago and it was directly overhead - the lightening was so close i got a surprise and the thunder was loud and long. I just kept walking and training as normal and totally ignored thunder and pelting rain. She was not thrilled about that either.

I went thought a side alley/street past side of shopping centre and she started to shrink, tail went down, then she saw 3 people smoking and chatting and she shrunk even more (she usually pulls and carries on to get to anyone and everyone). When we got to main carpark, I realised how glad i was that i always tighten her collar one hole before taking her off our property because i think she may have slipped it. She was SO different to the Rosie we know. She was still by my side at this point, but slightly behind.. after dropping DVD off and turning for home, she just wanted out of there and was surging to the front, but tail down and freaking out.

Brings me to my question. I realise you are supposed to ignore fear and carry on as usual. Usual was my stop every time the lead went tight and wait till it has slack in it. So i was having to do this every 2 steps (just like on the first walk i did it). But to show her there was nothing to fear, you don't stop and keep marching on as if nothing is wrong. There were kids on bikes coming past and she panicked - my kids have bikes and she has no problems with them or with other bikes on the road.

I didn't know what the 'right' thing to do was! Keep up the same training i had done to the shops, or allow her to pull and therefore be able to keep up a swift walk to show i was not scared.

eeeek! Now do i avoid that area for now, whilst i work on the lead training? She is 7.5months and i read on K9's puppy thing that the next fear phase can start at 8 months.

Thanks in advance and hope I am not being a pain or an idiot!

[WalandLibby]

I use quite a different approach to a dog feeling fearful. I think that ignoring fear does not show adequate respect or compassion for my dog and not supporting them when they feel fearful is abdicating part of my responsibility for them. If something makes my dog fearful I try to 1)reduce the level of the fear-inducing stimulus (usually by increasing the distance between us and it) and 2) getting my dog happy so that he can associate the stimulus with feeling good - the fact that your dog becomes able to eat treats and play is a good indication that you have moved far enough away from the scary thing. Sometimes it is valuable to increase the distance and then just let the dog look at the scary thing. Keeping them in the frightening situation increases the chances they might do something more intense in response to their fear (like barking or biting) and such responses are often repeated because they tend to be quite effective (at least they seem so to the dog).

She is 7.5months and i read on K9's puppy thing that the next fear phase can start at 8 months.

Rather than expecting fear phases or any other developmental stage to appear on the dot of any particular time, let Rosie tell you when they are happening. Each pup develops a little bit differently, so things don't happen at the same time for all of them, those times are really only averages. We have so little research to rely on about the development of pups in general, but older pups especially.

About her lead-walking, focussing on rewarding good lead-walking with other things than just moving forward should help. Lots of drivey, energetic, happy pups find so many aspects of being out on lead rewarding that it is difficult to communicate to them what you are trying to reward them for. Having stronger rewards (food) that can be correctly timed will communicate with her much more effectively.

Edited November 1, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Guest RosieFT]

Thanks again for your input :-)

She is such an out going little soul and just loves everybody and everything and has not shown fear before (except at thunder directly over head like i said), I was so taken aback and had no idea how to address it. If it happens again I will get away quickly and then re introduce slowly.

She is not a food oriented dog when there are other things about. We went to 3 obedience classes before she would even take any food rewards from me, and still is not food focused. In fact focus is still the biggest issue we have when at obedience. I can do the training at home but get her to the grounds and she is a different dog - understandedly so. There are that many dogs, people and wonderful smells it is like taking young kids to a lolly shop. I have tried toys/ball, different food reward types etc. but focus is an issue. Having said THAT, she is much improved and alot of the time she will now respond almost as well as sshe does at home - until the instructor comes close or we start doing walking excersizes....

The instructors tell me that terriers are notoriously difficult to obedience train and I should expect that and I need to work on getting her focus on me better. To be honest, I think she is doing well in the classes although when compared to the retrievers staring son one mindedly up at the food reward bags, she isn't! LOL I think she is smart - she will do the excersizes a number of times and then want to move onto something else.. or follow that smell, or say hi to the dog n ext door etc. etc. But I am getting her focus for longer and longer and her 'work' at the classes is definitely getting better and better.

With the walking, again I have tried the food luring, food rewarding when at my side etc. but as i say, food is not a priority when other things are around. BUT, i still carry rewards with me on walks and can now do effective training on local oval and also when walking and have her take some. :-) .

I am really excited with her progress with the stop/go training though. I can feel how it will work as she is starting to regulate herself when she nears the end of the leash now. Tonight I only had to correct her a handful of times - a few were because there was an uber exciting Ibis bird on our front lawn :-) . I have had several walks with 80% of the time she is doing this beautiful trot next to me and the lead is slack. You have no idea how happy that makes me! To have something *click* with her finally is awesome. She picks up the stationary training - sit/down/stay/recall/touch - really quickly - at home anyway!

The lead walking has been something I have really been down about as I have been trying so hard from day one and not had consistent success till now. I am able now to reward her with food as she is some what focused on me, and near enough that i can reward her :-) .

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, much appreciated.

[WalandLibby]

My Foxy was so incredibly food-obsessed that I imagine everyone else's is too, lol. There was nothing in the world more important than food for her - she was the kind of dog who would check a spot where she'd found food - even boring food - for weeks afterwards. Apparently lots of Foxies do that.

Have you tried different kinds of rewards? For most dogs there are some things they'll work for. I'd also ask the instructor to help me use Rosie's love for them as a reward. They stay just far enough away that she can concentrate and do as asked, then she is released to say hello. Over time (and it shouldn't be much time) the distance can be decreased.

Fancy your instructor saying Foxies are hard-to-train. My girl was my first dog, and very much my learner dog (as if you don't learn a load from every different dog you own, but you know what I mean - with her my learning curve was pretty steep). Anyway, I really messed up her social development as a young dog, and about the first 5yrs trained her in what I now regard as a cruel and unsympathetic way. So I had a lot to 'fix' once I got into reward training, and I guess I never really did manage to fix a lot of it, but in spite of that she was a most rewarding dog to train.

Edited November 2, 2008 by WalandLibby

[Drumbeat]

Thanks again for your input :-)

She is not a food oriented dog when there are other things about. We went to 3 obedience classes before she would even take any food rewards from me, and still is not food focused. In fact focus is still the biggest issue we have when at obedience. I can do the training at home but get her to the grounds and she is a different dog - understandedly so. There are that many dogs, people and wonderful smells it is like taking young kids to a lolly shop. I have tried toys/ball, different food reward types etc. but focus is an issue.

You are not alone, Rosie - this describes my 8 month old Lakeland Terrier perfectly. I have just returned from obedience class where she couldn't even be bothered to 'drop', tried the same command at home and she did it perfectly every time!

[Guest RosieFT]

drumbeat - it can be so frustrating and when people act a bit patronising when i say she can do it at home... or comments like " so has she settled down AT ALL at home yet?" ARGHHHH she is a lovely, lovely dog at home and out usually, she just gets super excited with all the dogs and smells and people at obedience. It is a huge club - her class has two instructors and about 25-30dogs in it. But most people are lovely and have their own different issues with their dogs. Personally, I would rather have a dog ethusiastic and confident about the world than one that cowers and sticks to me like glue, but each to their own!

I love lakeland terriers! Our good friends had one for many years and she was a lovely dog.

[wuffles]

Just thought I'd add that our rescue dog is similar. He is not food or toy motivated which can make it hard. Sometimes I'll dangle bbq chicken in front of his face at training and he'll try to look around it like "get that food out of my face, can't you see I'm trying to stare at the puppy class?!?!" People are always telling me that there must be *something* he will work for but we definitely haven't found it yet and we've tried an awful lot of things! So I feel your pain about having to say the dog is perfect at home.

I am by no means an expert, but when it comes to fear, I also find that distancing ourselves seems to work the best for our boy. He is wary of buses, kids on bikes, etc on our walks so often when I see them coming I will increase the distance between us and them. Or I'll let him go over and sniff a tree to distract him. It's gotten to a point where I can make him sit at the side of the path when a bike comes past with just a slight flinch (previously he would try to bolt). I know it's not always practical to distance but if in any way possible that's what I do.

[corvus]

I use quite a different approach to a dog feeling fearful. I think that ignoring fear does not show adequate respect or compassion for my dog and not supporting them when they feel fearful is abdicating part of my responsibility for them.

You have no idea how glad I am to hear someone else say that! I've noticed with Penny over the years that she is calmer in the face of fear if I have a look at whatever she is frightened of, and/or get down to her level and put a hand on her and just talk to her quietly in a happy, soothing tone. Sort of like "Are you afraid of that old thing?? Aww, I know it's scary, but it's all right, no big deal." If I can, I would do that until she relaxed. Often all it takes it to acknowledge her and tell her everything is fine. If I don't acknowledge and just ignore, what should she think? Perhaps I haven't realised there's something scary there despite the fact she's trying to tell me! That's even more scary. She's all on her own, then.

I'm not sure what you should have done, but for me fear comes first. Temple Grandin, famed autistic animal trainer, says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make them feel afraid. I think that is so important. Fear is how animals learn. It's such a powerful thing. So when my animals are afraid, I usually try to stick by them until they feel more relaxed. If I can soothe them so that they start feeling less fearful, then I've accomplished two things: my animal is relaxed, so big plus there, but I helped them get relaxed, so double plus. Now they have that little more trust in me that will help me next time they are afraid. I would have stopped and tried to calm her, but failing that, I would have high-tailed it out there and forgot about the training. She's not going to learn much about loose leash walking when she scared regardless. I would speed up my pace to try to keep pace with her, although outright running is probably not the message you want to send. Once I was out of there, then I would have stopped and talked to her to get her listening to me again. That's just what I would have done. No idea if it's right or not.

Of course, I have a wild hare as a pet and sometimes the best thing you can do for his fear is to leave him alone. Penny is afraid of thunderstorms and fireworks. I find the best thing to do for her is to let her find a place she feels safe and hang out nearby reading a book or whatever. It all depends on the level of fear.

[charli73]

In reference to your original post, I have always been instructed to show firm leadership when the dog is fearful.... This means not reacting or freaking out whatever the case may be..

With fear periods we saw 2 fear stages one at 6 months then one at 13 months and our very bold GSD became scared of every little noise for a couple of weeks but she came out the other side, unfortunately with some issues as the neighbours dog gave her a scare in the dark which took some time to rectify but all is good now...

When a dog is showing signs of fear or anxiousness patting and re-affirming the dog is just reassuring the dog its ok to be scared and this behaviour will continue or make it worse... by ignoring you are setting an example "well if hes not scared why should I be"... JMO

[WalandLibby]

Personally, I would rather have a dog ethusiastic and confident about the world than one that cowers and sticks to me like glue, but each to their own!

Which is why I'm sure you're a perfect owner for a FT :-)

Do you have access to any other training classes? This class sounds really over-arousing, which has a big impact on a dog's ability to learn. Inability to take rewards is so often the result of either some level of anxiety or over-stimulation.

Edited November 3, 2008 by WalandLibby

[WalandLibby]

I've noticed with Penny over the years that she is calmer in the face of fear if I have a look at whatever she is frightened of, and/or get down to her level and put a hand on her and just talk to her quietly in a happy, soothing tone. Sort of like "Are you afraid of that old thing?? Aww, I know it's scary, but it's all right, no big deal." If I can, I would do that until she relaxed. Often all it takes it to acknowledge her and tell her everything is fine. If I don't acknowledge and just ignore, what should she think? Perhaps I haven't realised there's something scary there despite the fact she's trying to tell me! That's even more scary. She's all on her own, then.

I'm not sure what you should have done, but for me fear comes first. Temple Grandin, famed autistic animal trainer, says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make them feel afraid. I think that is so important. Fear is how animals learn. It's such a powerful thing. So when my animals are afraid, I usually try to stick by them until they feel more relaxed. If I can soothe them so that they start feeling less fearful, then I've accomplished two things: my animal is relaxed, so big plus there, but I helped them get relaxed, so double plus. Now they have that little more trust in me that will help me next time they are afraid. I would have stopped and tried to calm her, but failing that, I would have high-tailed it out there and forgot about the training. She's not going to learn much about loose leash walking when she scared regardless. I would speed up my pace to try to keep pace with her, although outright running is probably not the message you want to send. Once I was out of there, then I would have stopped and talked to her to get her listening to me again. That's just what I would have done. No idea if it's right or not.

Of course, I have a wild hare as a pet and sometimes the best thing you can do for his fear is to leave him alone. Penny is afraid of thunderstorms and fireworks. I find the best thing to do for her is to let her find a place she feels safe and hang out nearby reading a book or whatever. It all depends on the level of fear.

Great post. :rolleyes:

[ish]

If your pup is entire, the out of character fear could be because she is about to come into season - I've noticed with a couple of mine that things which are normally nothing, like a gate banging, becomes something they get concerned about when they're soon to come in season.

[Guest RosieFT]

ish - she has been sterilised, but thankyou for your observations :-)

I think the fear is in relation to noise - so far anyway! the thunder; we walked under an overpass on the weekend and you could hear the cars going over the bridge above us and it was like a bump, bump loud noise and she didn't like that; coming down that alley/side street thing at the shopping center I was talking about, when i think of it, the sound carried down there and everything was amplified; also on another walk on the weekend we came across a young boy on a relatively noisy push scooter and she was unsure of that; and finally, on her morning walk this morning, there was some construction work going on and the cement mixer was making a racket and she didn't like that either.....

Hmm there is nothing that is no noisy that she has had a problem with so far... she still happy to say hello to every dog she sees, large or small :-)

WalandLibby - yes, i do agree that she is over stimulated at these classes. The beginner class she started in, had around 20 dogs which quickly dropped down to around 12. She is now advanced beginner, and for some reason they don't split up the class, just hold it together with a large number of dogs and 2 instructors?!?!? It has only been 3 weeks in to this level, so maybe they are judging the dogs? They do stress that alot of the training is to teach us to take it home and do it. She is actually getting really good with focus in the stationary work.. but I am thinking when everyone lines up (2 lines of dogs!!) do to the 'loose lead' walking drills I will just go off to the side and do my own thing because it is impossible to get any focus from her.

The trainers have also pointed out taht because it is used as show grounds (it is actually at the main canine association grounds) there is alot for her to smell in terms of entire dogs, females who have been in heat etc. on the grass. In a separate area, on other side of a carpark, they have agility training.. i am hoping that when she is old enough, she will be able to have a go at that because she is so fearless and already plays on my kids' play equipment , through their tunnel etc. , up stairs, down the slide - with no fear :-)

She is so easily distracted... sigh.. i had the loose lead thing happening so well around the block here, even at local oval, but when we went visiting my parents' this weekend and walking at a very interesting place, with 2 other dogs and lots of family members, she just wasn't interested in listening. :-(... baby steps.. baby steps.. :-) Sometimes i just want to Barbara Woodhouse her and shove on a choke chain!!! But i know that won't work because (as you pointed out) they seem to thrive against pressure - just makes them try harder to do their own thing! I think it all comes back to the tanacity of the fox vs the fox terrier ! LOL They had to out fox the fox, rise to any pressure, and use their brains to beat them too...

Wuffles - ahh yes, the 'get the food away, i am trying to look/sniff/run/ play" ..scenario i know quite well :-)

Charli/covus - i can see both sides of the argument.. when i am out walking and a single thing worries her (like cement mixer) , i can appreciate that saying, yep, can see that, its ok, lets just keep going .. would work.. but I had not experienced the complete over whelming fear of her entire surroundings before.. so i agree i should have high tailed it out of there and maybe worked on the periphery!?!? thanks for both your input/experience, perhaps it depends on the dogs nature?

thanks everyone! it is so good to be able to have somewhere to chat/nut out a problem. I just want to do the right thing by my dog :-) Don't want to over think everything, but it seems this first 12months is very important to get 'right'!

[WalandLibby]

I am thinking when everyone lines up (2 lines of dogs!!) do to the 'loose lead' walking drills I will just go off to the side and do my own thing because it is impossible to get any focus from her.

Good idea.

I just want to do the right thing by my dog :-) Don't want to over think everything, but it seems this first 12months is very important to get 'right'!

I get the impression she's a very lucky little dog.