Gerda the Schnauzer Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hi there, Wasn't sure which section (this or puppy) but as I am hoping K9 (or other) reps will offer some advice so I put it here. Gerda is 4.5 months old, standard schnauzer, puppy school graduate, well exercised and properly fed (I hope!). She was crated as a puppy for night sleeps, and now sleeps outside (made her and us much happier, she is on an enclosed patio, with open crate and bed). Today I took her to the groomer for the first time, for a bath and to trim her eye hairs only. She was crated (normally leave them there for 2 hours), which was fine. But when I got back the groomer said she went crazy when they got her out for her turn, pooed everywhere and they couldn't even get a lead on her! So she got her back in the crate (no idea how) and waited for me to return. Then we trimmed the eye hair and gave her a bath, no problems (just normal, bit scared of the hydro bath etc). Groomer said she had never seen anything like it.... and we knew Gerda was warey of other people, not family, and took a while to warm to them, but this is more concerning. I rang the obedience club to book her in for her further training, mentioned the groomers issues and if they would be able to help me with that, and the advice from the person was a bit of a concern... she said to either crate her again or tether her at night. I can kind of see the sense in crating again, but we won't/can't for many reasons (no problem at night anyway ). But tying her up? Can someone explain how that would help over night? Should I go to these people for her obedience? Or try to find a K9 course that will help me out?? She learns very fast, I think. Just to anticipate questions, she is walked for an hour every morning (off lead time), and a short walk in the afternoon or evening, mostly just to get out for a sniff than exercise. We are home mostly during the day, but she only comes in for short periods of time, as the kids toys provide a bit too much entertainment! We mostly play with her outside, then she comes in for the evening. She is very good now though, and the only problem WE have with her is jumping and some teething-mouthing. Nothing that I would think was unusual for a puppy. She sits and looks to us for all meals, but I haven't put her on a tie back for this yet. We get lots of visitors, and go out to the kids park, and other places on weekends. She gets used to people after a while and will be near them, and after a couple of visits she may even approach them. But she will bark at adults that she can see inside but not get to (glass door closed). Any ideas? Don't want to over-react, we like her personality, that she doesn't approach strangers etc, but I do want her to be well socialised and healthy (mentally) and hope I am not doing something drastically wrong that is stressing her. I want to take her somewhere that I can trust the advice, and with methods that will work for us and her. Thanks, GTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I will not give too much of advice or opinion- save to say that she may well have been born timid- that tying her up will probably NOt solve the problem, and that you need the personal assistance of a trainer/behaviourist....not just an obedience class... body language is just so important with fear-aggression issues, and , as she is still a baby- the right help for your family is VERY important, to set her up for life A professional - seeing her at home will be able to give much more pertinent advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Did you ask the trainer/person who gave you this advice what it was intended to achieve? Unless there is something missing from the recount of the event, the problem seems to be associated only with being at the groomers and/or being brought out of the crate (in an unfamiliar .... and noisy environment) by an unfamiliar person (ie groomer). I don't understand where crating and tying out in her own territory where she is familiar and comfortable is supposed to anywhere near address the problem. And I don't understand where tying out is supposed to help whichever the environment. I always hesitate to give opinion in this situations as what is related can often be simply a recount of the recipient's interpretation of the intent .... no offence to you intended GtS. This is why, rather than asking here what the trainer/person meant by it, it is best to clarify it with the person who gave you the information. If you're then unsure whether that information/advice is wise and wish to 'sound' it out here, you're in a position to give further information so we can all at least see (read : hear) the trainer/person's 'reasoning' and have some idea of whether it might be likely (or not) to achieve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 There are a wide range of people who call themselves "trainers" at an obedience club. Very rarely do you find qualified behavior related advice at a club, so be careful what you listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 It sounds like the problem happened when they took her out of the crate? Dog grooming can be very scary for some dogs. (I used to be a groomer). I would probably have insisted on staying with her for her first grooming. Groomers often don't like that but too bad. Rather than crate training it sounds like she needs more socialisation to lots of different things and people. It is not a totally unusual reaction though. I found that grooming really tested a dog's tolerance levels. Could have been worse - she could have badly bitten the groomer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) How much time has she spent visiting people and places outside your home? How mush time does she spend alone? How often has she been handled by people other than family? Edited October 29, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerda the Schnauzer Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 Thanks a lot. No offence taken Erny, and if I had the nerve I would ring her back and ask her! But I expect she would backtrack and say nothing more without seeing Gerda... and that would tie me to them in a way. The classes start on Friday, but I think I may be better doing this without them. The 'levels' web site (someone here gave me the link) has been great for us so far, and any problems we have I feel that we could fix with more time and attention. The groomer one threw me for six.... Jules - yes, I did say I wanted to stay but she said they behave better without the owner, LOL, now sh eis asking me to stay next time! She was very good, wanting to take it slowly to make it a nice experience etc. At least she is willing to try. I might have to look around for alternative courses, everyone in our area goes to this one club, they have a total monopoly. GTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I think that you should go to the classes. They might not fix this particular problem but they are great for socialisation and general obedience. The general day to day training of your puppy (your sits, stays, recalls etc) helps create a well balanced dog that knows were it stands IMO. I have done dog school with all my dogs and they are lovely to have around. You might also need one-on-one help but I would see how you go at the next grooming session. I am an instructor at a dog school but I usually refer such issues to a private instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerda the Schnauzer Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 She does very well with basic commands, we just haven't advanced to doing them with big distractions, so yes the classes would help with that. Poodlefan - she in only on her own for a couple of hours each day, and sometimes again later (as we are inside in the middle of the day and doing the lunch rush). She comes out with the whole family once a week, visiting my mum's property normally. Some try to touch her but she backs right away so they give up normally. She is used to some and will even take a treat from them now. Today was great though, a friend came over with her children, I put Gerda on a lead and gave her a roo-chew. She barked at her at first (ignores the kids), but I held her, in a sit, and my friend just let her sniff her hand. Then I popped her on a tie back to eat her chew while the kids played. She was calm and happy, and the boys sat with her for a while, so all in all an improvement Her canines just popped out too, so maybe she was extra-sensitive yesterday with her teething hurting her too. Jules - yes, I wouldn't expect individual/stranger problems to be dealt with in a big class! But she asked so I told her LOL. She said they do home visits for $200... yikes. Hopefully I can sort it out myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Gerda is 4.5 months old, standard schnauzer, puppy school graduate, well exercised and properly fed (I hope!). She was crated as a puppy for night sleeps, and now sleeps outside (made her and us much happier, she is on an enclosed patio, with open crate and bed).Today I took her to the groomer for the first time, for a bath and to trim her eye hairs only. She was crated (normally leave them there for 2 hours), which was fine. But when I got back the groomer said she went crazy when they got her out for her turn, pooed everywhere and they couldn't even get a lead on her! So she got her back in the crate (no idea how) and waited for me to return. Then we trimmed the eye hair and gave her a bath, no problems (just normal, bit scared of the hydro bath etc). Groomer said she had never seen anything like it.... and we knew Gerda was warey of other people, not family, and took a while to warm to them, but this is more concerning. K9: She could be a late developer & be in her Fear Period, so being left alone, with a stranger could trigger an episode like this, although if she lost her bowel it must have been quite an episode. I rang the obedience club to book her in for her further training, mentioned the groomers issues and if they would be able to help me with that, and the advice from the person was a bit of a concern... she said to either crate her again or tether her at night. I can kind of see the sense in crating again, but we won't/can't for many reasons (no problem at night anyway ). But tying her up? Can someone explain how that would help over night? K9: well I cant? I would expect that when offering training advice they may give you an idea of what this training would be in hope to achieve? Should I go to these people for her obedience? Or try to find a K9 course that will help me out?? She learns very fast, I think. K9: I am not sure you need to do anything? One episode that you didn't see is something that would make me want to observe my dog, rather than try to fix something I haven't seen? Watch her with strangers, see if you can hold her still & do a mock eye clip in case something specific is freaking her out, but also look at http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) Gerda: Poodlefan - she in only on her own for a couple of hours each day, and sometimes again later (as we are inside in the middle of the day and doing the lunch rush). She comes out with the whole family once a week, visiting my mum's property normally. Some try to touch her but she backs right away so they give up normally. She is used to some and will even take a treat from them now. So she's spent nearly all her time in the presence of a few family members in familiar places. At the groomers she got left on her own in a strange place and handled by a complete stranger - something she shies away from. I'd say she needs to go more frequently, be given treats by the staff and taken home again. With their permission I'd stay for the number of times it takes her to be unstressed while handled by them and then work up to leaving her, being available if she regresses. This needs to be 'old hat' to her ASAP. I'd strongly recommend you return to obedience training for the outings and spend more time taking her out and about to new and different places. I'd also suggest you condition her to spending longer periods of time alone at home and, where possible, in other safe places (eg. in a crate at your mums). She needs to build social confidence in her. Sounds to me like a dog that won't deal well with new people and new situations, partially due to lack of exposure but probably also due to her temperament. A qualified behaviourist would give a far better assessment and help you with a strategy to assist with this. Your experience is part of the reason why I recommend any dog that needs regular grooming visit at least once a month from the time it comes home. Edited October 30, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerda the Schnauzer Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks. K9 - Well I'm glad you couldn't understand it either! We do have a K9 centre not too far from here... I was going to ring and see if they do group sessions. Too many training methods might get confusing. I think doing the TOT will help her with being on a tie back when visitors come, and at cafes etc. But I'd like to make sure I am doing it right! Poodlefan - She is kind of used to the place, its at our vets, where puppy school was held too, so she has been there a lot, and is quite comfortable there, but never been left alone, and not in that particular room before. I underestimated how hard it would be for her. I have all my own grooming supplies, so one day I will do it myself, but wanted to start off with a prof. year or two. I'm sure they will be willing to help/treat etc. She does go to lots of new places, but mostly on her morning walk with hubby, and there aren't that many people up at that time! I do the social thing with her normally (beaches, shops etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks.K9 - Well I'm glad you couldn't understand it either! We do have a K9 centre not too far from here... I was going to ring and see if they do group sessions. Too many training methods might get confusing. I think doing the TOT will help her with being on a tie back when visitors come, and at cafes etc. But I'd like to make sure I am doing it right! Poodlefan - She is kind of used to the place, its at our vets, where puppy school was held too, so she has been there a lot, and is quite comfortable there, but never been left alone, and not in that particular room before. I underestimated how hard it would be for her. I have all my own grooming supplies, so one day I will do it myself, but wanted to start off with a prof. year or two. I'm sure they will be willing to help/treat etc. She does go to lots of new places, but mostly on her morning walk with hubby, and there aren't that many people up at that time! I do the social thing with her normally (beaches, shops etc). I think its the handling that was probably the most difficult part for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 And the noise of clippers and dryers and even the sensation can be quite distressing for some dogs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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