Maintaining Pack Leadership

[dee lee]

On the first visit from our trainer several months ago, amongst the mountains of ideas her poured on me (luckily he had made notes for me too! ) I recall him saying something along the lines of "some" dogs will continue to challenge for the rest of their lives.

He wasnt speaking about Evie then but I have come to realise that yes she is one of those dogs.

If I am not consistently tough on her the passive challenging creeps up. Even if I spend a little extra time patting her I can see my control over her is lessened.

I feel like I am missing out on a lot of the joys of owning a dog by being so tough, but I recognise I have no choice but to be consistent- especially since my OH and the kids have no idea what they are doing. Still i would like to increase my bond with her, and worry that she does not have a very "happy" life since I am always on her case.

So my question is- what kind of playtime/bonding would you consider to not interfere with my leadership?

Bearing in mind that she is never allowed offlead (so I can do agility) and has very high preydrive (so I dont do tug with her).

[MonElite]

grooming would be one.

But to me training is something that not only doesnt interfere but strenghtens the bond.

Teach her a zillion tricks if you are bored.

You can pet her (so you get the satisfaction) so many times you will be sick of it. Well not really but you know what I mean.

[dee lee]

grooming would be one.

But to me training is something that not only doesnt interfere but strenghtens the bond.

Teach her a zillion tricks if you are bored.

You can pet her (so you get the satisfaction) so many times you will be sick of it. Well not really but you know what I mean.

Thanks Monika, I never thought of grooming. She does seem to like that.

I've taught her a few tricks, might have to have another look for new ones. And more training can never be a bad thing (may have been a bit lax lately too )

I do pat her after making sure she sits and behaves. Maybe I am just worrying needlessly.

Do you think that with such a dog that maybe one day she will give up challenging and we can relax a little?

[Janba]

In what way does she challenge your leadership? How does her behaviour change if you give her more attention?

Edited October 29, 2008 by Janba

[MonElite]

If you assert yourself as a leader and stay that way she will stop. She only tries as she thinks she can. make sure she stops thinking she can. Meaning assert yourself more for longer.

I have never seen your dog, but when I train at the club Id say that most dogs dont have the right leadership at home.

My Rex knows many tricks I enjoyed teaching him new behaviours and he enjoyed showing off in front of friends kids. Spinning, playing dead, barking on command, finding hiden objects and we always ended the performance with the bow Kids loved it, loved Rex and he likes kids too. Each kid wanted to give him piece of liver for doing something, there were times Rex had 5 command issued at the same time and would look at me with the face - WTF do I do now??? I had to save him at times :D

Rex is one of those dogs that is a quiet dominator and very sneaky at it too. He knows the rules and he knows what he can get away with, and doesnt try going overboard these days at all.

I really cant recall when was the last time I issued a formal command for him.

Well thats a lie as I was walking him the other day and asked him to heel and do an auto sit. He was in shock :p but he did it But before that it was several months.

But he blew my recall too and decided to pee on a tree before coming back to me.

Edited October 29, 2008 by MonElite

[poodlefan]

"Fun" with a dog like this is any game in which you make the rules and control the resources. You start it and you end it.

[Kavik]

I agree there are heaps of tricks you can teach!

apart from those already mentioned: retrieve, target training, put object in box

Today, even though it is wet we did:

* ladder hind end awareness work

* contacts for agility

* retrieve

* send away

[~*Shell*~]

I agree there are heaps of tricks you can teach!

apart from those already mentioned: retrieve, target training, put object in box

Today, even though it is wet we did:

* ladder hind end awareness work

* contacts for agility

* retrieve

* send away

Zero and i have been working on hind end awareness work too - he loves learning those things and i think it's great for leadership because he's learning and the way i teach it (he puts his front feet up on a crate and i walk around so he has to face me the whole time - he only moves his back legs and just pivots on his front) he has to look at me the whole time. Just having him pay constant attention to me is great for leadership i think.

We're also working on having him take a dumbell from me and to for him to give it back. It's taking a while though because he's definitely not a retriever - but i'm determined to teach it to him anyway!

[dee lee]

Janba- obviously my leadership, whilst I think it is good, is not perfect as I am still needing to use correction on our walks to keep her at heel (she pulls with little focus otherwise).

I find that if I have been softer on her (being more affectionate etc) she very quickly starts to play up- ie jumping on me and trying to mouth me when she gets excited, and running through doors before me. She is immediately corrected when this happens but it does signal to me that she starts to feel that she can try it on.

It can be a tough battle staying on top though when my OH and the kids aren't as consistent. Not that they are EVER affectionate to her, just dont think about the little things.

Tricks sound good- Im afraid the "teacher" is a bit of a doofus though .

I have taught her shake hands, catch, fetch and roll over, so I should get the hang of it- one day.

Is it just me that feels like my brain gets so overloaded with all the training, tricks and stuff that it doesn't work anymore??

You guys are too bloody clever!!! Please tell me once upon a time you were as clueless as me...

[ruthless]

Do you have a clicker? I've got an abundance of clicker training books if you want to borrow one and try it out?

ETA I think you're being quite hard on yourself. The first time I met you I was quite amazed at how quickly she dropped when you told her to, considering she was obviously uneasy about Angel being so nearby. Perhaps I should've told you that at the time

Edited October 29, 2008 by ruthless

[MonElite]

You guys are too bloody clever!!! Please tell me once upon a time you were as clueless as me...

I dont know how clueless you are , but Rex was my first dog ever in my life, Divani is second and I had NO IDEA when I bought Rex in 2000.

My dogs are not perfect, I hope you dont have this impression!

[Kavik]

Mine aren't perfect either not by a long shot!

I just try to focus on what I want to work on that day or that week. Occasionally needs a change of plans like today with the rain, just means we do stuff we haven't practiced in a while.

And Diesel surprised me today by actually enjoying his retrieving

[ruthless]

My dogs are not perfect

I can back this up

[~*Shell*~]

Tricks sound good- Im afraid the "teacher" is a bit of a doofus though .

I have taught her shake hands, catch, fetch and roll over, so I should get the hang of it- one day.

Is it just me that feels like my brain gets so overloaded with all the training, tricks and stuff that it doesn't work anymore??

You guys are too bloody clever!!! Please tell me once upon a time you were as clueless as me...

I still am clueless!

Zero and i are still working on roll over which he totally refuses to do. Some easy other tricks to teach (if you have the shake hands thing down) are shaking with the other hand ("paw"), waving each paw (I use "wave" for his right and "rock on" for his left - i use a waving action for the right and a hand gesture people do at rock concerts for the left - I just thought it was funny when i saw wolfsong's Lestat do it so decided to teach it to Zero like that) and paw targeting - which means you can move onto nose targeting and then to other things like "beg" by raising your hand over the dog's head while it's sitting and giving it the command for beg, and the command for "touch" so the dogs balances.

I try and teach things that i can teach several tricks as a lead on from because Zero gets bored easily. I love love love the clicker - makes teaching Zero things so much easier!

[MonElite]

My dogs are not perfect

I can back this up

But in all seriousness I think you need to have a look at your goals for your dog and than decide what and how you are going to do it. Be prepared that what you want might not be achievable.

I for example wanted to do sch with Divani, she isnt suitable for the bite part, but we can still enjoy doing other two parts. and a variety of other sports to go along with that.

I wanted to show her, and I did, this came with some problems but I worked on them as it was important to me.

I hardly ever walk my dogs on the streets so lets say if they pull me a little its not a problem for me.

I let them off in parks where there are no other dogs and dont really let them socialise with unknown dogs, so their recall is important to me.

I trial Divani so I want her to do certain types of excercises for the obedience.

And at home there are rules such as no jumping on people, getting on furniture only when invited, no stealing food from anywhere and going to bed when I say so. And they do all that perfectly.

Well Rex lets himself onto my bed on occasion, but I put a blind eye to that, so I guess he is allowed there with no invitation

Edited October 29, 2008 by MonElite

[Kavik]

Very important to have goals

Even in agility, on specific pieces of equipment, I have been asked (and been able to answer ) what my goal was and exactly how I wanted the dog to perform the exercise (was asked about dogwalk).

Like this week, my goal is to increase Diesel's send away distance, and (weather permitting, not looking good though) get a good tracking session in where he tracks consistently without hurrying or circling - so focussed and calm in a straight line.

Kaos is to improve his send away to a toy as we have had issues with his stay when I go to place the toy. ETA: and weaving - getting close now!

Edited October 29, 2008 by Kavik

[dee lee]

Do you have a clicker? I've got an abundance of clicker training books if you want to borrow one and try it out?

ETA I think you're being quite hard on yourself. The first time I met you I was quite amazed at how quickly she dropped when you told her to, considering she was obviously uneasy about Angel being so nearby. Perhaps I should've told you that at the time

Yes, please! I would love to borrow a clicker book! (need to get a clicker now- ooh how excitement)

And thanks for the vote of confidence!! She can be a good girl sometimes- we have come a long way.

As for the rest of you geniuses (or is it genii?) Im glad you say you aren't perfect! (don't believe you though!!)

MonElite + Kavik, good point about goals. Sometimes I tend to get a bit bogged down by management and lost the objectives. Maybe clicker training will re-inspire me.

(And psst- what's a send away?)

[Kavik]

A send away is when you teach the dog to run away from you in a straight line - normally taught to a food or toy target which you move slowly further away and then you can fade it if you wish. In SchH the send away includes a drop at the end after running a certain distance. Dogs with drive pick this up very quickly, they really like it, it is a lot of fun, and they do lots of running Here is Kaos (who is the best at it) doing one to 40 paces, he can now do up to 54 paces.

Diesel is the worst at this exercise, though he is improving a lot recently, he can do up to about 18 paces.

[corvus]

You know, lots of dogs don't even register that they are going through a door before or after you, and trying to mouth you can be a sign of affection rather than "testing". Some dogs are just excitable. There are plenty of dogs out there that test merely because they don't want to do what you asked them to rather than anything to do with dominance or social climbing. Just the other day KT cheerfully ignored his recall, then tried zooming home half a minute later with the expectation that he would get his treats still. He is the most submissive dog I've ever met. He's 7 months old and we still haven't seen so much as a growl or a hard stare from him. He goes belly-up at a sideways look. But you know, in wolf packs, submissive behaviour often actually gets the wolf what they want. Ever seen the way a mother wolf approaches her mate when he has food and she has pups? She's all ears flat and belly on the ground and licking his mouth like a puppy. Then she snatches the food and runs away. I've heard of submissive dogs always getting what they want through similar wheedling behaviour. There are so many reasons why one particular animal will behave in a particular way. I've known loads of dogs that don't give a fart about doorways, and my old corgi has only recently started caring as her eyesight has deteriorated, and she was only doing it when KT was still new in the household. She was nervous, not dominant. She doesn't care who goes through the door first as long as she can trust them not to wipe her out in the process.

Anyway, you can always try a different way. It's not like you can't change back to the old way if it's not working. Try playing tug and actually doing fun things with the dog and see if she gets more attentive eventually. It's not hard to bring a dog in line with NILIF if it starts getting out of control. If my dog isn't doing what is asked, I usually assume I am not asking in the right way. How can I blame them for blowing me off when I'm nowhere near as interesting as something else? It's just a matter of making yourself more interesting.

Incidentally, I like walking with my dogs for having fun and bonding. The both know a lot of verbal cues, so I'm always talking to them as we walk and they respond accordingly without even thinking. It's nice to see them with an ear open to my talk all the time. And it's good to set up habits in your dog that double as setting up good manners and attentiveness.

[dee lee]

Oh Corvus, to have a dog where such things as doorways didnt make a difference.

She is a pigheaded staffy x and yes, she is excitable but not in a way that we can live with. She can be very very rough and we have children- which is also why mouthing also is not tolerated.

Backing down on discipline is not an option, the positive changes and obedience improvements that have come about since our "boot camp" has been put into place are amazing. Really she is not a soft dog- she is not interested in pleasing me (you know what I mean- dont dob me into Tonymc!) and yelling at her would get her attention, not upset her. I am careful about playing games with her- tug is out because of a past history of her not letting go of other dog's necks when playing, I dont think its wise to let her "practice" that (I still ave hopes of supervised play with other dogs).

Back to the doorways though, I am a bit lenient on that one (cant teach the kids to do it with her) but I can tell you that if she has been pushy and I begin to insist on it again her behaviour improves immensely.

Kavik- the send away sounds like what Evie would LIKE to do given half chance, but I dont think she would stop!!