"i Am Not Doing This To Please Anyone!"

[Lablover]

A question for you...what does the word biddable mean to you?

Well. (ha)......if one looks at the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Biddable

(1) Easily led, taught or controlled

(2) Capable of being bid

As we all know many breed standards include biddability.

Interesting topic.

Sometimes my dogs are so easily led, taught or controlled, sometimes NOT LOL.

Control during handling to hidden retrieves, against seen retrieves especially when out of sight and their ability to work on their own. Makes life interesting.

[cavNrott]

Dog is happy. Owner is happy. Dog is behaving. I think you have too much time on your hands when you feel you must disect and study the relationship between this dog and it's owner who are out having a fun time minding their own business. If someone came up to me and started going on about prey drives and fallacys ect ect. while i was out having fun with my dog i'd say you'd be the one who would come across as full of yourself.

Amen to that RottyLover. I'd very promptly tell anyone who interfered in the game my dog and I were having and started lecturing me to bugger off and find something constructive to do with their time.

[Lablover]

Dog is happy. Owner is happy. Dog is behaving. I think you have too much time on your hands when you feel you must disect and study the relationship between this dog and it's owner who are out having a fun time minding their own business. If someone came up to me and started going on about prey drives and fallacys ect ect. while i was out having fun with my dog i'd say you'd be the one who would come across as full of yourself.

Amen to that RottyLover. I'd very promptly tell anyone who interfered in the game my dog and I were having and started lecturing me to bugger off and find something constructive to do with their time.

True, but sometimes we cannot help at least thinking while watching other people train their dogs.

Simply put, animals behave for one of two reasons: to acquire desirable outcomes or to avoid undesirable outcomes.

My dogs are so biddable, am I am sure while they are sleeping around me, they are dreaming of driving me to training.

How often have we heard my dog has a mind of its own. What the heck does that mean - whose mind can it be??????

[loveretrievers]

Ok, I'm wondering why it mattered what this guy called it? He was obviously enjoying himself, the dog was happy. Most people don't know everything about dogs. Most dog owners wouldn't have a clue about why their dog sits when they ask it to sit, but then what does it matter? I think it's more important to educate people in a simple way then trying to get technical. Might keep a lot more dogs from ending up in a shelter for behaviour problems.

That almost sounds weird to say to someone, your dog has a prey drive, they don't want to please you. Sure you may just be right, but it's not really important.

[lucylotto]

I don't know really,but IMO a dog does something for satisfaction,it gains a positive result by listening

Ok

Taken this bit to quote...whilst just doing the dishes I was thinking....

Humans do something for another human to PLEASE the recipient of whatever is being done.

Fine...

How do we KNOW the recipient is pleased?

They smile, they say ,thankyou, they may hug us, or jump for joy.... all very visible signs which are the 'giver' /doer's' REWARD

Is this then SO different from a dog sitting quietly, because it thinks that by doing so we will say "good dog", or pat it, or some other tangible reward?

..........thinking.... but cannot find the right word combinations

*goes back to thinking*

[Vickie]

Ok, I'm wondering why it mattered what this guy called it?

It matters because this is a discussion forum & this is a discussion...and obviously one that people are interested in.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Vickie

[dak07]

Dogs are extremely selfish and will do absolutely nothing unless they benefit some how (never out of the kindness of their heart) but i doubt I'd pull someone aside in the park and explain this.

[WoofnHoof]

It is interesting and relevant because if you are willing to accept the idea that your dog does something specifically to please you, then you must also accept the idea that your dog does something specifically to annoy you, you can't really have one idea without the other.

The evolutionary advantage to being 'biddable' is that a dog which learns rapidly gets rewarded more readily and is more successful than the less biddable types, of course there are occasions when biddability is more of a hindrance than a help, like in the case of sibes when their sled driver is heading them straight towards a crevasse if they were more biddable they would follow his direction more readily and end up getting selected out of the gene pool in a hurry!

A biddable dog is able to pay attention to the rewards and the human behaviours which are associated with those rewards, pats (akin to grooming behaviours), food or simply the abscence of a correction.

[persephone]

The evolutionary advantage to being 'biddable' is that a dog which learns rapidly gets rewarded more readily and is more successful than the less biddable types, of course there are occasions when biddability is more of a hindrance than a help, like in the case of sibes when their sled driver is heading them straight towards a crevasse if they were more biddable they would follow his direction more readily and end up getting selected out of the gene pool in a hurry!

Good example

We used to call it "intelligent DISobedience", in Guide Dog days - where a person with a GD attempts to step off a Kerb, or walk along a footpath, and the dog will NOT let them move because of perceived danger from oncoming traffic, or other obstacle.

This was taught, but 'improved upon ' by the dogs as they worked and learnt .

[corvus]

Well, while I don't think any dog really does something specifically to please his owner, I noticed with our pup that he already knew what a happy person looked and sounded like when he came home with us at 8 weeks. Happy voice = happy pup. It took rewards to condition "good boy" as a reward all on its own with no accompanying treats or pats, but the reality is, both he and Penny are very happy when their people are happy with them. There is such a thing as social learning, and there is such a thing, IMHO, as an innate desire for harmony in the group. Thus, dogs learn what an angry/sad/negative human looks like if they are sensitive to "bad vibes" in the group, and they instinctively gravitate towards doing things that promote good feelings in the group. That, to me, is at the heart of what makes a dog particularly biddable.

All right, here's my hare story:

My hare is the only animal I've ever met who has seemed to do something enirely for my benefit. I was having a bad night one time and the dog knew I was cranky and selfishly thought it must be her that I was cranky with and was trying to appease me by sitting at my feet and giving me adorable looks. Of course, I just kept tripping over her, which made me more cranky. The rabbit was oblivious of my mood and was being particularly mischievous attacking cords from every angle with a variety of strategies to get past me. The hare sat in his cage all night and kept out of it. At the end of the night I put all the animals to bed. When I got to the hare, he quietly hopped over to me and covered my hand in hare kisses, which is something he might do twice a year if I'm lucky. My anger naturally evaporated and I relaxed and wished all my animals were so perceptive. As a non-social, wild animal with no real vested interest in my emotional state, there was no real reason for my hare to do anything. He could have sat in his cage and ignored me like he does most of the time. I will never know if he knew what he was doing or if it was just a coincidence, or if he had more of a vested interest in my emotional state than I believed. What I do know is that I've never seen a dog do anything remotely like it! They don't like us being sad because of its impact on them. They like us to be happy because of its impact on them.

ETA: Oh, I thought of another one. One time the hare got his leg caught in a cloth and flipped out. I was able to get him free with some difficulty. His natural instinct is to run for the hills in such a circumstance, but he pulled himself up from fleeing and came back to me to again cover my hand in hare kisses. What the? Never done anything like it before or since. That hare has challenged a lot of things I thought I knew about animals. But then, wild animals are something else. They are grown ups next to our domestic furry kids.

Edited October 28, 2008 by corvus

[SkySoaringMagpie]

HA! My dog does NOTHING to please me!!

I live in a house with 4 Salukis and 2 Afghan Hounds. I have never laboured under the delusion that my dogs live to please me.

It's basically a dance of mutual self-respect. I don't allow them to muck around with my boundaries, and I don't inflict bullshit Cesar Millan style dominance stuff on them. Ultimately I (and my OH) are the leaders, but being a leader takes some finesse.

[Diva]

Just thinking aloud, but I have certainly had dogs for which my praise was a high value reinforcer, higher than food or play. And I taught those dogs to retrieve on cue, even though they had no inherent interest in retrieving. They obeyed commands to get the praise, which in effect meant to please me. But pleasing me is just another form of self serving behaviour at its core, as I control access to resources, and it's beneficial to be in with the boss, so to speak. In these instances I have taught the dogs what pleases me and built up a reinforcment history. Behaviours which build social bonds may well be inherently reinforcing anyway, given their evolutionary benefit? But I just think of that as another type of R+, not a desire to make me a happy person for my own sake.

[Akitaowner]

surely pack drive is working for the dogs satisfaction with attaining praise or interaction from the alpha as the reward?

Its not strictly the dog trying to please the handler, however the dog is motivated by the following interactions with the handler...

[dee lee]

Just thinking aloud, but I have certainly had dogs for which my praise was a high value reinforcer, higher than food or play. And I taught those dogs to retrieve on cue, even though they had no inherent interest in retrieving. They obeyed commands to get the praise, which in effect meant to please me. But pleasing me is just another form of self serving behaviour at its core, as I control access to resources, and it's beneficial to be in with the boss, so to speak. In these instances I have taught the dogs what pleases me and built up a reinforcment history. Behaviours which build social bonds may well be inherently reinforcing anyway, given their evolutionary benefit? But I just think of that as another type of R+, not a desire to make me a happy person for my own sake.

I too was thinking something like this- but as usual wanted to wait for someone more eloquent to say it and then agree.

Really are humans all that different either?

Does anyone ever do something just to please someone, without ever wanting something back? Surely what we would want back is acknowledgement at the bare minimum, which in itself is not just doing something for the sake of pleasing.

[Diva]

Really are humans all that different either?

I don't think so. But they can get quite upset if you suggest to them that their selfless love for their children is just a biological imperative

surely pack drive is working for the dogs satisfaction with attaining praise or interaction from the alpha as the reward?

Its not strictly the dog trying to please the handler, however the dog is motivated by the following interactions with the handler...

I'd agree, but I tend to avoid using the 'drive' terminology myself because I not familiar enough with it's nuances. I just think of drives as just hardwired motivations.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Diva

[dee lee]

Really are humans all that different either?

I don't think so. But they can get quite upset if you suggest to them that their selfless love for their children is just a biological imperative

Ooh there's a topic!!!