Tonymc Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 In my travels,I of course run into many fallacy's,half truths,mistruths and so on.I am sure we all do. Nowdays, less and less People are working with dogs or work dogs as part of their livelyhood.I see as many others do that some owners are out of touch with the true essence of what a dog is and how a dog is.Not seeing a dog as he really is,of course leads to things such as mismanagement,unrealistic expectations,behavioural problems and so on. The other day,I had a discussion with a fellow.This person had their dog with them and I had not met this Person prior to this.I had the old AB with me.This fellow had some little type of dog and was throwing a small ball for it.The little dog was slowly but surely fectching the ball and bringing it back to him.Because I was close, this fellow obviosuly thought my focus was on his dog.I can read People pretty quickly and this bloke was pretty full of himself.This bloke says to me"Pretty impressive hey!!!"I said" Sorry Mate but pretty basic!!!" Anyway, this Bloke feeling that he was losing ground in the self importance stakes,tried to go up a notch by asking me "Well why do's my Dog fetch the ball?I said,Mate its simply prey drive.The answer from him was with a laugh"Your so wrong!!!!I then said, well seeing you are a wealth of knowledge please enlighten me!!!!This Bloke then proceeds to tell me that the Dog do's it because the dog knows it please's him!!!{Nothing to do with drive at all lol} Soon as I got the answer that it was all about pleasing the owner,I thought oh one of these types!!! How many times have we all heard that?My dog do's it because he or she know it please's me?Too many. It certainly do's not help dogs that many many times somebody hears a statement,view or perception and blindly accepts it to be truth without questioning it and researching the relevance, validity or truth. We all know a dog will continue to do something if it has a payoff and or feels good and will discontinue something if there is no payoff and or it feels bad.One Human can do something to please another of course and we have all done that.Firstly though we have to have the awareness or knowledge of what actually please's the other person.How do we gain the awareness of what please's the other person?We do so by the other person telling us,by a third party telling us or by us watching the other person.Inorder for us to do this and be aware of what please's the other person it take's a Human intellect. Its pretty obvious that a Dog do's not pocess a Human intellect. The old "My dog do's it to please me fallacy" Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 you lost me on that one Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 PS, if you want to see some fallacies, half & mistruths...have a read of this thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=150070 some of it is funny but some of it is almost delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 HA! My dog does NOTHING to please me!! However I seem to constantly be trying to please her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I understand what you are saying but when it is not doing the dog any harm or creating a problem, i generally don't correct someone who says a dog wants to please them- why does it matter if they think that the motivation for a behaviour is different in the example you mention? I also do think that biddability does exist and while in theory, the dog is receiving a reward when the owner is happy- many owners think that because their dog responds to their happiness that they 'aim to please'. Again, i don't see an issue- the dog still gets what they want, the owner is happy and continues to 'reward' the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 Vickie, some think a dogs motive for doing things is to please the owner.Inorder to do that firstly the dog wouldf have to know what please's the Human involved.That takes a Human intellect. For example one day at home we had a visitor who was a believer that Dogs do what they do inorder to please the owner. I asked this Person to explain their logic or reasoning.In this case their logic was if the owner and dog are both present or together the dog will automatically do something to please the Owner, while the owner is present.So that was the logic given to me in this example. So I said to this Person that in their rationale the Owner has to be present and the Dog will do something to please the owner.The answer was yes. So I walked over and let a Dog out,then left the Dog to it and took the Visitor inside for a while. After sometime, we came back up and here was the dog holding a small mob of Sheep near the Yards.The Visitor was rather surprised!!!The visitor said"Gee your were not even there and the dog did something to please you!!!! The real truth was the Dog went around and brought the Sheep up due to Prey drive.Letting drive flow and release was what pleased the Dog, not pleasing me. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hmmm.. So- a dog doing something for praise (ie: owner is pleased, and communicates this thru praising the dog) where does this fit? I once had a dog who, at 3 years would only work sheep because she was told- because it was what I wanted her to do. She wouldn't do anything off her own bat... just what she was ordered to. no more, no less. Provided commands were given for every action, she was a very handy dog (for me only) left to her own devices, or without direction.. no response, no 'instinctual herding/chasing'... I chose to believe then, that she did it to please me- altho I guess it was both to avoid any harshness, and to gain praise This was a looong time ago- when I was fresh out of school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) I over hear that a lot, " my dog does it to make me happy,my dog wants "his" toy because he wants to show off" A dog is a dog is a dog. Not a human,not a toy but an ANIMAL. It's not too difficult to work out but yet it is for some. When did Canines become so predictable? If the dog has a well thought out method of forsight then that dog is REALLY special. They know what we want, and we know it's done for only our benefit. Clever us. I don't know really,but IMO a dog does something for satisfaction,it gains a positive result by listening and listens with training/conditioning/repetition which ever one applies to the Individuals situation. A Canine who does nothing for itself and everything for it's owner, I don't buy it. Like us,we have our drives to satisfy and so do our dogs. Edited October 28, 2008 by Delkerabo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Vickie, some think a dogs motive for doing things is to please the owner.Inorder to do that firstly the dog wouldf have to know what please's the Human involved.That takes a Human intellect. I guess it's semantics. I don't think it takes a human intellect for a dog to repeat or offer a behaviour in order to get something. Sure it is not capable of literally thinking, I will do this b/c my owner likes it, but if a dog gets rewarded (either by a person or externally) each time it does something, it will continue to do it. So in a way it does know what pleases the human as it is used to being rewarded for certain things. Obviously a dog is not capable of seeing a nice flower & thinking, oh my owner would like that, I will give it to her. A question for you...what does the word biddable mean to you? In the many dogs you have worked on stock, surely some have been more willing to follow direction from the get go & some you have had to battle a bit with first. What is the difference between them in your opinion? Is it just variations of prey drive levels? In general life, why is it that some dogs you struggle more with than others? Why are some more willing to accept the rules & some need to question them first? eg, years ago my husband left our side gate open. We had 2 dogs. 1 was found sitting on the front doorstep, then other standing inside the yard at the gate. Now I know he didn't stay inside the yard to please me, but what is the difference between the 2? Same ages, treated the same & disciplined the same. As pups, one had to be taught a recall, the other has pretty much always just stayed within a metre of me. Is that natural pack drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't know really,but IMO a dog does something for satisfaction,it gains a positive result by listening Ok Taken this bit to quote...whilst just doing the dishes I was thinking.... Humans do something for another human to PLEASE the recipient of whatever is being done. Fine... How do we KNOW the recipient is pleased? They smile, they say ,thankyou, they may hug us, or jump for joy.... all very visible signs which are the 'giver' /doer's' REWARD Is this then SO different from a dog sitting quietly, because it thinks that by doing so we will say "good dog", or pat it, or some other tangible reward? ..........thinking.... but cannot find the right word combinations *goes back to thinking* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) *goes back to thinking* Me too. I know dogs don't do things purely & utterly to please, there has to be some history of reinforcement...but...it still doesn't explain the different levels of biddableness in dogs to me. and it doesn't explain why the same person can take a talented hard headed dog & breed it to something softer to get a talented & more biddable dog. Edited October 28, 2008 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 But doesn't there have to be a history of reinforcement for people to do things though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Our whole lives are Histories of Reinforcement if you really want to analyse the reasons we do and don't do things, for other people. Even the so-called Selfless Act, has a reason behind it. I do a Selfless Act, because I want to feel good about myself. Or in the past, when I have performed a Selfless Act, I felt good. It's not tangible reward to others...as in it's not a physical thing....it's a state of being. Even in an abusive relationship, if you listen to the reasons why people stay there, we make ready excuses in the hopes for our reward. ie...They say the love us, they won't get rid of us...whatever...whatever...can only really speak for myself. I have no idea if I made any sense at all. And for anyone that cares...the expectation of reward here...I just like to see my name up in lights. Gives me a sense of self importance. Oh....and it meant I was able to procrastinate and avoid doing boring, but paid work. Wow...numerous levels of reward on that one. None of it cos it pleased anyone either...btw.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westielover Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) I too have heard people say that their dogs are doing XYZ to please them, which is amusing but it's cute in a quirky kind of way because these people obviously think their dogs "love them to pieces" and that pleases the owner to no end. No harm in people believing this if they want to - not everyone is a canine behaviour expert - why shatter their world with reality when they are quite happy with the idea that their dog is pleasing them out of sheer love when no real harm is being done, as stated by Cosmolo. However - what gets me is when people blame the dog for bad behaviour! Eg. The dog is defacting indoors to spite me because I left him home alone all day !!! I think the word everyone is looking for is 'Opportunistic' - dog's don't do things to please others - dog's are opportunists! It's the 'what's in it for me' factor which drives a dog to do things for us isn't it? edited because I excluded a couple of relevant words! Edited October 28, 2008 by westielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I know Zero does things to satisfy himself. He will work for my praise - but if he doing it because it pleases me? No! He's doing it because it satisfies something he needs. For example - I wave a toy in Zero's face and give him the command to "sit". He's not going to sit because it'll make me happy - he is going to offer the learned behaviour of "sit" to get what he wants, which is the toy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't know really,but IMO a dog does something for satisfaction,it gains a positive result by listening Ok Taken this bit to quote...whilst just doing the dishes I was thinking.... Humans do something for another human to PLEASE the recipient of whatever is being done. Fine... How do we KNOW the recipient is pleased? They smile, they say ,thankyou, they may hug us, or jump for joy.... all very visible signs which are the 'giver' /doer's' REWARD Is this then SO different from a dog sitting quietly, because it thinks that by doing so we will say "good dog", or pat it, or some other tangible reward? ..........thinking.... but cannot find the right word combinations *goes back to thinking* The part of that post you quoted,goes in context with the other half of it.He is trained/conditioned whatever for that Individuals situation(the handler).The dog gets a reward from following a task by way of praise or toy,food.It is not doing it for "free". IMO When dogs sit quitely, they are resting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 HA! My dog does NOTHING to please me!! However I seem to constantly be trying to please her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 IMO When dogs sit quitely, they are resting. sometimes, yes- other times, they will deliberately stop being complete and utter fools, and realise that sitting quietly gets them some praise/attention Well, that's how it happens here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RL1 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 In my travels,I of course run into many fallacy's,half truths,mistruths and so on.I am sure we all do.The other day,I had a discussion with a fellow.This person had their dog with them and I had not met this Person prior to this.I had the old AB with me.This fellow had some little type of dog and was throwing a small ball for it.The little dog was slowly but surely fectching the ball and bringing it back to him.Because I was close, this fellow obviosuly thought my focus was on his dog.I can read People pretty quickly and this bloke was pretty full of himself.This bloke says to me"Pretty impressive hey!!!"I said" Sorry Mate but pretty basic!!!" Dog is happy. Owner is happy. Dog is behaving. I think you have too much time on your hands when you feel you must disect and study the relationship between this dog and it's owner who are out having a fun time minding their own business. If someone came up to me and started going on about prey drives and fallacys ect ect. while i was out having fun with my dog i'd say you'd be the one who would come across as full of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I think all mammals works for survival and rewards... I had a job in administration, and I hated the boss... I stayed there and did my job to the best of my ability (which was more than the boss had).. I did it because I got paid, I could feed my family, and I could do things I wouldn't have been able to, if I didn't get that much money. I didn't work there to please the boss... Animals work for survival and rewards as well... If the animal is rewarded for a job well done, he's likely to repeat that, just as we do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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