Quickasyoucan Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Ive seen Trixie quite a few times now and I belive she has far more prey drive than Chopper.She has engaged in play with me immiediatelly at the club, with dogs around her. If she was weak nerved and worried about the situation she wouldnt engage in a pretty serious play with a stranger. But the quite serious growling she did with you during tug play would worry me. Ruth asked about that at the aggression seminar, I thought Steve said it was the sound of the air passing through her vocal chords when her mouth was almost closed around the tug (well something like that). I thought lot of dogs growled when playing tug. Jake tries to do crocodile death rolls as well But maybe we didn't witness something as full on as you have MonElite as obviously the dogs' behaviour may have been supressed by the environment at the seminar (PS off topic I didn't realise you were Mon Elite - I thought it was mona light - (spelling changed for pronunciation). Oops. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: Many dogs growl during drive building activities, but most of them do it on the tug rather than a ball toss for example. The clamping effort to hold the tug energises the neck muscles, this often creates a noise of some kind, some dogs naturally growl in the fight for the tug also. It has never bee a concern for me unless the dog has stopped tugging (exited prey drive) & is holding the item & making eye contact with me (entered rank drive). I had no problems with Trixies growls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I played over and over with Ziggy (dobe) and she growled. I play with my friends malinois and he growls Trixies growl that I had seen was different. She growled with me a bit, but how she growled with Ruthless was different and it worried me a bit. Im no expert, but if it was my dog I wouldnt be doing tugging with it like that. Especially that the dog is a pet and there is no real need for Trixie to be building more drive and playing tug like that. She can release the prey drive in other non confrontational ways. JMO. ruthless Im game enough to try her again tho I didn't realise you were Mon Elite It came to my atention that there were few people with this problem hence I asked Troy to change my nick for me slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 M: Especially that the dog is a pet and there is no real need for Trixie to be building more drive and playing tug like that. She can release the prey drive in other non confrontational ways. K9: I am not offering any comments on whether the dog needs to be building drive, that's the owners call not mine. M: I played over and over with Ziggy (dobe) and she growled. I play with my friends malinois and he growlsTrixies growl that I had seen was different. K9: Different breeds make different sounds. Any time anyone plays tug with their dog undesirable actions can emerge, this type of growl to me wasn't a concern, seen it thousands of times without a problem. Better results can be gained by looking at the posts I wrote earlier in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: Many dogs growl during drive building activities, but most of them do it on the tug rather than a ball toss for example.The clamping effort to hold the tug energises the neck muscles, this often creates a noise of some kind, some dogs naturally growl in the fight for the tug also. It has never bee a concern for me unless the dog has stopped tugging (exited prey drive) & is holding the item & making eye contact with me (entered rank drive). I had no problems with Trixies growls. Yeah okay what he said, not what I said, must pay better attention at seminars - partial information is worse than no information at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Any time anyone plays tug with their dog undesirable actions can emerge, this type of growl to me wasn't a concern, seen it thousands of times without a problem. Exactly what I would worry about. To a non expert there might be a to of a fine line to distingush between one type an the other. Personally I would not allow it to growl like Trixie did. But each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: consistency & leadership often help with nerves, & whilst you may do a "lot" of leadership, she may need more than other dogs do.I try not to over stimulate these types of dogs, give them little in life to deal with & just work at simple rules & be consistent in the beginning. Measure the results by video & when you get a good foundation then increase the work you do. This seems to be a recurring theme in your advice to me, I am heeding it, I'll get there K9: throwing the ball for two dogs at once can create unhealthy competition & start pack fights, tethering one can add so much frustration the outcomes are infinite.Not taking her again will do nothing to reduce the drive already created. R: After dog training some people let their dogs off lead for a runaround. Again she squeals and bounces and would probably grab if she could. She gets put in the car. K9: again frustrating thus drive buidling for her. So we've unintentionally built drive in her, maybe it was already there from her previous owner, whatever the cause, it's there, is it something to worry about? R: At the aggression workshop she was pretty well behaved so Steve walked her near another calm, tethered, dog without any correction to see how she reacted and she lunged and barked. No excitement involved.K9: As I mentioned then, different Alpha, which help confirm that is at least a part of the problem. I havent taken three dogs out & played ball, or taken her away from the dogs running at training so she would see me as a leader who wont tolerate her lunging & that she is so far below me that she wont feel its her job/responsibility to react / act towards other dogs. there were a few dogs there that as soon as I took the leash, displayed completely different behaviour, there were a few previous clients of mine there too who's dogs behaved just perfect with them as they had mastered the pack relationship with their dogs. I didnt feel Trixie to be a weak nerved dog, I more felt (during the prey drive work) that she had a nervous energy that stemmed from not being able to satisfy her drive with any predictability, in other words, any thing that moves could be a target when she is under guided. This means that prey drive is manifesting & not being corrected, there is no self control, no self limits when it comes to prey drive triggers & possibly not enough Alpha direction there. I understand that teaching the basics as you've shown us will improve her self control and self limits, will it also address any prey drive issues? ruthless Im game enough to try her again tho Steve told me recently to stick to the basics and cease all drive activities with all the dogs [incl. Lure Coursing ] for the time being, so I'm going to do what I'm told for once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) M: Exactly what I would worry about. To a non expert there might be a to of a fine line to distingush between one type an the other. Personally I would not allow it to growl like Trixie did. But each to their own. K9: These are the bigger concerns IMO. When throwing the ball for C+A at the park [a few days after bringing her home], she was onlead and started squealing and bouncing and tried to grab them anytime they got close. OH did the same a few days later and she did it again. Haven't brought her since.After dog training some people let their dogs offlead for a runaround. Again she squeals and bounces and would probably grab if she could. Edited October 28, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'm going to do what I'm told for once for how long? :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) R: This seems to be a recurring theme in your advice to me, I am heeding it, I'll get there K9: I know you are, I dont read many posts (far too busy) but I dont see too many of your posts talking of how well some things are going, wins are wins, & you are getting some wins... R: So we've unintentionally built drive in her, maybe it was already there from her previous owner, whatever the cause, it's there, is it something to worry about? K9: Not maybe, probably & even more probable genetic. Yes I would be painting that behaviour unacceptable to her. Any behaviour that is rewarding & ignored by the Alpha is acceptable in the dogs mind. R: I understand that teaching the basics as you've shown us will improve her self control and self limits, will it also address any prey drive issues? K9: teaching basics opens up communication, communication basically tells a dog how to get rewards & when they are acting in ways that wont get them rewards, so yes this is the foundation. R: Steve told me recently to stick to the basics and cease all drive activities with all the dogs [incl. Lure Coursing ] for the time being, so I'm going to do what I'm told for once K9: If you give her a hard shove (training wise) for about 4 - 6 weeks you should see results that you will be proud of. Edited October 28, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: These are the bigger concerns IMO.When throwing the ball for C+A at the park [a few days after bringing her home], she was onlead and started squealing and bouncing and tried to grab them anytime they got close. OH did the same a few days later and she did it again. Haven't brought her since.After dog training some people let their dogs offlead for a runaround. Again she squeals and bounces and would probably grab if she could. They're a concern for me too, that's why I ask for advice on how to help her. This behaviour is completely manageable as she's consistent in her reactions, but like I've said before I want to do more than manage her. I'm going to do what I'm told for once for how long? :wink: I've been good They've been off the bed and sofa since we implemented the ban, and I finally dusted off the RTs and even started work with Angel, so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 R: This behaviour is completely manageable as she's consistent in her reactions, but like I've said before I want to do more than manage her. K9: yes & no, someone reporting her for trying to grab other dogs could see you or at least her, in hot water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I've been good They've been off the bed and sofa since we implemented the ban, and I finally dusted off the RTs and even started work with Angel, so OMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) R: This behaviour is completely manageable as she's consistent in her reactions, but like I've said before I want to do more than manage her. K9: yes & no, someone reporting her for trying to grab other dogs could see you or at least her, in hot water. We don't take it lightly and make pretty damn sure it can't ever happen, but if a dog ran up to her and she was onlead, wouldn't it be the other owners fault for letting their dog rush her? Edited October 28, 2008 by ruthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 R: This behaviour is completely manageable as she's consistent in her reactions, but like I've said before I want to do more than manage her. K9: yes & no, someone reporting her for trying to grab other dogs could see you or at least her, in hot water. We don't take it lightly and make pretty damn sure it can't ever happen, but if a dog ran up to her and she was onlead, wouldn't it be the other owners fault for letting their dog rush her? K9: In reality yes, in the eyes of the law? Maybe not if your dog is aggressive & the other dog isnt. This is just all hypothetical but if the other dog was off leash in an off leash area then they would look at who was the aggressor I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 It is hypothetical, but it's good to know. I always presumed that I had a leg to stand on if she was rushed onlead, even in an offlead area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: If you give her a hard shove (training wise) for about 4 - 6 weeks you should see results that you will be proud of. I'll report back in 4-6 weeks so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: The law is not sympathetic to those with aggressive dogs, they know little about them, dont want to know anything about them other than how to punish them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 K9: If you give her a hard shove (training wise) for about 4 - 6 weeks you should see results that you will be proud of. I'll report back in 4-6 weeks so 9: I will be waiting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'll report back in 4-6 weeks so I hope with photographic evidence!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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