ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 As most people know, Trixie is fear aggressive. She's ok with our pack as long as everything is kept calm. No toys. No charging around the garden at high speed. Wrestling is ok, but only if supervised. She's really nervy. If I'm holding anything that looks threatening [pooper scooper, sweeping brush, a random piece of wood, etc.] she'll jump out of the way. If I'm walking her and a truck or bus goes past she jumps, even though she's already on my inside. I don't ever baby her and reassure her when she's carrying on like this. I imagine it's to do with events from her past, we got her from the pound in April and they reckoned she was 2. I noticed two things yesterday. She was asleep beside Chopper on a cushion. He sneezed which woke her and she went for him. She didn't connect and there were no dramas. It was a split second reaction that an "oi" from me snapped her out of. Later on she was asleep in her crate with the door open. There was a loud bang outside and she jumped out and started barking aggressively. Again, she was easily calmed down. We do a lot of leadership work with our dogs, so I don't think that's the issue. She's pretty obedient and well behaved. I think she has weak nerves, but is that something that can be fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Ruthless, it could be a few factors at work here. Factors may be lack of exposure when younger,leadership,age and genetics. It always pay's to get an outside opinion of our leadership, as self analysis at times is not very objective. The age of this dog seems to be a bit of guesswork?I would have a read through K9,s Pup development calendar.I would study and ascertain whether the dog in in a fear period. Yes could be weak nerves from a genetic basis. How do's this Dog react when with somebody else other than yourself? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 She's the same with my OH. No one else ever handles her, just the two of us. When we've guests she often completely ignores them. She may go over for a sniff after a while. Depending on how long they stay, she may actually warm to them and sit with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) Your solution is to desesitise her to things she finds threatning. Well I think its the only solution, but Im no expert. She nay never be able to be fine with everything, as it might be her genetic make up and experiences fron the past. Experiences during fear impact periods can last a life time, you might able to get the reaction weakened but might not be able to fully "fix" her. Edited October 27, 2008 by Monelite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 I thought that might be the case, as she's improved on so many levels, but this is one area that seems to remain unchanged. It's really not a huge deal, it just must be crap for her to get such big frights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) Good question Ruthless, I was actually wondering the same thing about Evie. :wink: Tonymc, assuming a dog has had unknown bad experiences, is mature, and there is existing good leadership (as acknowledged by a professional), then what would be your opinion as to whether it can be fixed? Owning an older rescue dog means that the developmental stages are a mystery and so where do you go then when you have problems? Is the problem too entrenched to ever go away without medication? *oops so slow!! Ok so then would medication help? doggie prozac? Edited October 27, 2008 by ✽deelee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 She might improve with time, but you should also be aware that she might also be more affraid in the grumpy old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I agree with Monelite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisymina Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) T-Touch might help relax her a bit. It was good for Kaisie - but, again, residual "issues" and hereditary temperament issues seem to be par for the course when there is an unknown backgound. They are no big deal for her either, thank goodness. But at least she enjoys her bath now (without snapping at me) and doesn't freak at the broom, vacuum or hose. Edited October 27, 2008 by noisymina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Helena Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 This topic is very interesting! I got Bonnie when she was 10mo and she appeared to miss out on some socialisation. She is 95% fine with noises and all sorts really, but is extremely nervy around new people - despite me taking steps to help overcome it. This (nervousness) seems like a very difficult issue to overcome.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) It is impossible to say without seeing the dog what the best way is to do this- but desensitisation is the key. One of our dogs is extremely fearful but has improved a great deal since we have had her through a combination of counter conditioning and flooding. Don't kow if this makes sense but i prefer to be pro active rather than reactive- setting up the situations that illict the response- once i know exactly how i'm going to deal with what the dog is going to do. It allows you to more effectively deal with whats happening rather than just waiting until something happens and the dog reacts. Edited October 27, 2008 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 Can you suggest any good reading material on how I should react? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Ruthless i know this is going to sound like a stock standard line and i apologise in advance for it but it is impossible to say with any certainty what you should read/ do without seeing the dog Flooding was the absolute best thing we ever did for Georgie and in many respects we had no choice because her fear (of everything!) was so extreme BUT their was no aggression- i rarely recommend flooding for minor problems let alone something more serious. How you should react is so variable and depends on so many things- have you seen a behaviourist? If so, what did they suggest? Does Trixie have prey drive issues as well? I ask because the reacting to excitement (toys/ games etc) is not typical ( but not impossible) of fear based aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I have a fear aggressive Amstaff here, and his fear is strangers. There are 3 people in this world he will let come near him. We got him at 7 months and it was already there, and I showed him, took him to show training, and we did a lot of socialisation, but it just progressed to the point that we cannot have strangers in the backyard without him carrying on. I have met his father and his sister, and they have similar temperaments, so now I suspect it is an hereditary problem in that line........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 Ruthless i know this is going to sound like a stock standard line and i apologise in advance for it but it is impossible to say with any certainty what you should read/ do without seeing the dog Flooding was the absolute best thing we ever did for Georgie and in many respects we had no choice because her fear (of everything!) was so extreme BUT their was no aggression- i rarely recommend flooding for minor problems let alone something more serious. How you should react is so variable and depends on so many things- have you seen a behaviourist? If so, what did they suggest? Does Trixie have prey drive issues as well? I ask because the reacting to excitement (toys/ games etc) is not typical ( but not impossible) of fear based aggression. We've been to Steve with our other dogs. He's never assessed Trixie as such, but we attended his 2 day aggression workshop with her, so he's given us some advice on how to work through her aggression. I've never asked him about her nerves as it only really occurred to me yesterday that it was possibly an area which needs work. Can you define "prey drive issues"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Sorry- meaning prey drive directed toward other dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 I'm not sure how that manifests itself, but it sounds like a possibility. A few scenarios ... When throwing the ball for C+A at the park [a few days after bringing her home], she was onlead and started squealing and bouncing and tried to grab them anytime they got close. OH did the same a few days later and she did it again. Haven't brought her since. After dog training some people let their dogs offlead for a runaround. Again she squeals and bounces and would probably grab if she could. She gets put in the car. Walking past the park a few weeks ago our neighbour's GSD came running over to say hello. He's super friendly and Trixie's met him before three times and submitted to him. She reacted the same as above. We made sure he didn't get close to her. We put her in a drop while we talked to our neighbour. A few minutes later he approached for a sniff and she submitted again. At the aggression workshop she was pretty well behaved so Steve walked her near another calm, tethered, dog without any correction to see how she reacted and she lunged and barked. No excitement involved. Prey drive issues isn't something we've ever looked into. I'll ask him to have a read of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) R: As most people know, Trixie is fear aggressive. She's ok with our pack as long as everything is kept calm. No toys. No charging around the garden at high speed. Wrestling is ok, but only if supervised. K9: She may be fear aggressive outside the hoem with new dogs, but this wont be the problem when she is aggressive with your pack. R: She's really nervy. If I'm holding anything that looks threatening [pooper scooper, sweeping brush, a random piece of wood, etc.] she'll jump out of the way. K9: I wouldn't put this down as a nerve issue in every case, more a learned experience perhaps. R: She was asleep beside Chopper on a cushion. He sneezed which woke her and she went for him. She didn't connect and there were no dramas. It was a split second reaction that an "oi" from me snapped her out of. Later on she was asleep in her crate with the door open. There was a loud bang outside and she jumped out and started barking aggressively. Again, she was easily calmed down. K9: This indicates to me that she is unsettled in the pack R: We do a lot of leadership work with our dogs, so I don't think that's the issue. She's pretty obedient and well behaved. I think she has weak nerves, but is that something that can be fixed? K9: consistency & leadership often help with nerves, & whilst you may do a "lot" of leadership, she may need more than other dogs do. I try not to over stimulate these types of dogs, give them little in life to deal with & just work at simple rules & be consistent in the beginning. Measure the results by video & when you get a good foundation then increase the work you do. R: When throwing the ball for C+A at the park [a few days after bringing her home], she was on lead and started squealing and bouncing and tried to grab them anytime they got close. OH did the same a few days later and she did it again. Haven't brought her since. K9: throwing the ball for two dogs at once can create unhealthy competition & start pack fights, tethering one can add so much frustration the outcomes are infinite. Not taking her again will do nothing to reduce the drive already created. R: After dog training some people let their dogs off lead for a runaround. Again she squeals and bounces and would probably grab if she could. She gets put in the car. K9: again frustrating thus drive buidling for her. R: At the aggression workshop she was pretty well behaved so Steve walked her near another calm, tethered, dog without any correction to see how she reacted and she lunged and barked. No excitement involved. K9: As I mentioned then, different Alpha, which help confirm that is at least a part of the problem. I havent taken three dogs out & played ball, or taken her away from the dogs running at training so she would see me as a leader who wont tolerate her lunging & that she is so far below me that she wont feel its her job/responsibility to react / act towards other dogs. there were a few dogs there that as soon as I took the leash, displayed completely different behaviour, there were a few previous clients of mine there too who's dogs behaved just perfect with them as they had mastered the pack relationship with their dogs. I didnt feel Trixie to be a weak nerved dog, I more felt (during the prey drive work) that she had a nervous energy that stemmed from not being able to satisfy her drive with any predictability, in other words, any thing that moves could be a target when she is under guided. This means that prey drive is manifesting & not being corrected, there is no self control, no self limits when it comes to prey drive triggers & possibly not enough Alpha direction there. Edited October 27, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 Thanks for getting back to me Steve I need to read it a few times and digest it. I'm sure I'll be back with questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Ive seen Trixie quite a few times now and I belive she has far more prey drive than Chopper. She has engaged in play with me immiediatelly at the club, with dogs around her. If she was weak nerved and worried about the situation she wouldnt engage in a pretty serious play with a stranger. But the quite serious growling she did with you during tug play would worry me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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