Under The Circumstances, What's Best?

[Erny]

With the onset of warmer weather and with that ..... mosquitos, I have turned my mind to heartworm preventative for Mandela who is only a few days shy of 5 months old.

I am loathe to subject him to chemicals of any description if I can sensibly avoid it, although knew that heartworm prevention was going to be a "must have" - I just put it off for as long as I could.

Mandela is a Rhodesian Ridgeback and anyone who knows them would also know they have a very fine, single coat. IF they have a flea at all it is easily detectable, as is any flea dirt. At this stage, no fleas are evident so I don't believe there is an issue there.

I know that Revolution (which, if I use a spot on, is what I plan to use) covers ear mites as well. That's a plus although is also something that I can keep a visual on, so "prevention" might not be required?

Of course, Mandela is regularly wormed as appropriate. Revolution covers roundworm and hookworm also.

So, I'm wondering :

1. Is it kinder to his 'system' to treat him only with the heartworm chewable?
   
2. Is there any good reason to avoid Revolution due to unneccessary 'double up' in his worming regime ?
   
3. Even if there was a 'spot on' that did heart worm only, would a heartworm chewable be less kind to his 'system' than a 'spot on'? I know that's a bit of a hypothetical, but an answer, if one is known (or even thoughts) would help me sort out in my head which is best for him with all things considered.
   

I don't think I realised how much and many thoughts were rattling around in my head until I tried just now to write them down, so I hope that the direction of my thinking has some clarity that you guys will be able to see to know why I'm asking these questions.

If not, let me know and I'll have a bash at re-explaining .

Cheers and thanks in advance for your thoughts, comments and/or answers.

[Dogsfevr]

our dogs get heartworm only.

We have no fleas so we dont treat for what we dont have.We worm when required

The only time i do use a spot on is when i travel east & thats due to the other animals on the flight.

I use Advantix when i do.

[Erny]

Thank you Settrlvr .... you do what I was thinking I might do too. Like you, I don't want to treat him (ie fill him up with chemicals) for what he doesn't need.

Has anyone here ever had any stomach issues caused by the feeding of the monthly chewable heartworm tabs? I think I'm being a tad paranoid because my previous girl was very sensitive and developed stomach issues.

The other thing I'm pondering on (and it goes against my thoughts in the first line of this post) is that with the spot-ons, they are safe to give without having to test the dog for heartworm first. Unless it has changed since I last administered my previous girl with heartworm chewables, I understand that after a 'grace' period (for if you've forgotten), you should get the dog tested before administering. This is making me think the spot-on is milder, in so far as it relates to heartworm prevention?

Sorry to babble on. These are just the thoughts that are still rattling and will most likely continue to rattle until I go bite the bullet and dose my fella with whatever heartworm prevention medication.

[anniek]

I don't know if there is any right or wrong on this.

We use sentinel spectrum on our fosters as we believe it to be the most "gentle" of all.

Please don't ask me why I said that, but one of our committee members is into "natural", and she recommended it.

I used to use revolution, but my old boy seemed "unwell" for a couple of days after using it. I have started ours on sentinel too, although I don't really see any reason to use anything for fleas.

annieK

[Erny]

Thanks guys. In searching around for answers or at the very least, view points from others, I came across THIS site, with Dr. Jean Dodds speaking.

It is getting to seem to me that for every plus preventative measures give us, there's 3 times that in negatives.

Given that thyroid issues seem to be so rife these days (which could simply be because there are more accurate blood testing and reasearched analysis indicators available ), it does make me wonder if it is not the result of all the 'stuff' we load our dogs with these days.

Anyway - back to the link to the site I gave above .... seems to me that a dog having heartworm (whilst not at all good) is curable in more instances than I previously thought?

Edited October 25, 2008 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

Milbemax tablets can be used monthly for heartworm and worms we used them at our last clinic (milbemycin)

heartworm is treatable depending when you pick it up. Early stages you have a better chance then when the dog is already in respiratory distress.

[Erny]

Milbemax tablets can be used monthly for heartworm and worms we used them at our last clinic (milbemycin)

heartworm is treatable depending when you pick it up. Early stages you have a better chance then when the dog is already in respiratory distress.

Aahhhh ... so Milbemax Tabs cover not only heartworms but the usual common worms we need to treat regularly for as well?

Which would bring me to my next question ....

When the dog is an adult we worm every three months. The Mibernax Tabs need to be monthly for heartworm. Is the monthly dosage for the treatment of the common worm then a heavier dose than what would be required for that? And with the regularity of the treatment, can those worms become resistent?

How do you pick up the "earlier stages" of heartworm infestation? Is this only by blood test and if so, how often would that blood test need to be taken (thinking that I might be able to fit it all in when I have the annual titre testing done).

Sorry for the questions on questions .... it is not that I am unhappy with any one particular answer. I am just doing what I can to conclude in my own mind that whatever I do is the best that I can (as we all seek to do) for my pup. Given the health issues my avatar girl had, which in the end became her demise, I am probably a bit paranoid about the whole 'chemical' trip and the possible affects to the auto immune system.

Thanks for the info Nekhbet.

[Nekhbet]

Idexx produce a Simplify test which looks like a pregnancy test. You need a drop of blood and then you add solution, give it 5 minutes and it will tell you if your dog shows heartworm antigens. The incubation period for heartworm though is quite slow, 6 months, so if you gave Mandella a test every 6 months you would pick it up if you wanted regular testing. Then the vet would go on to draw blood and send it off to the laboratory to confirm infection.

Worming tablets dont really stay in the system they just do a 'clean out' you could say, every time you give them. So no you wouldnt actually be overdosing the dog giving it Milbemax every month especially if that is what it is designed for.

If you are worried about worm resistance then give something like a praziquental tablet every 6 months as well. But really In 5 years I have never seen worms, had literally 2 fleas and everyones passed a heartworm test so chemicals are minimal here.

http://www.idexx.com.au/animalhealth/testkits/caninehw/

there is also SNAP tests for heartworm, Parvo and Giardia

ETA - there is that line of prevention versus treatment. Why risk the animal getting sick they say? But yes I see way too many fairly potent chemicals pumped into animals these days. Fleas, worms, heartworm, mites, etc etc every month more and more that soak into the actually fatty tissue fo the animal. How can we confidently say that this has NO long term health effect on a dog/cat/rabbit? I I wonder how Ivermectin in dogs is actually considered off label use in a vet clinic but Revolution with the synthetic avermectin chemical Selemectin is promoted for dogs? Theyre too similar for my liking and especially considering some breeds HAVE chemical sensitivities to avermectins I wouldnt trust it.

Are we killing our animals with kindness? I never use the heartguard or ProHeart injections i think thats just too much.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Alison]

Hi Erny,

I was using Revolution on both my dogs, until I worked out that my young boy was reacting to it. I am starting him on Interceptor Spectrum next month, as I was also told this was the most gentle on the body. I will continue to use the remaining Revolution I have on my girl because she doesn't have any problems with it.

During Winter I took my boy off all heartworm and flea medication as it is safe to do so when the weather drops below a certain temp. I believe that it is too risky to take your dogs off heartworm preventative all together though if you live in a heartworm area or travel with your dogs to/through heartworm areas.

In regards to your question about heartworm being treated when caught in the early stages, i think the problem with that is that symptoms don't show until the final stages when the body starts to shut down. I would *think* that if you were to blood test you would need to do so every 45 days. 0 - 45 days after infestation is when it is safe to kill heartworm in dogs, that's why the monthly tablets need to be given at least every 45 days.

Please post any information you come across as I am very interested in this subject. My boy doesn't tolerate chemicals very well.

I should add, then when i was looking into heartworm treatment and I looked into non treatment and natural therapies, the response I got from all vets (including natural therapy vets) was that heartworm prevention was a necessary evil.

[Nekhbet]

heartworm preventitives and heartworm treatment are two very different things. If a dog is over 6 months we never gave preventitives without a test first. The chemicals were never made to kill and deal with adult worms floating in the bloodstream.

[Erny]

Please post any information you come across as I am very interested in this subject. My boy doesn't tolerate chemicals very well.

Thanks Alison. I've emailed Dr. Jean Dodds for her thoughts on my direct questions. Provided she allows, I'll let you know what she says. I tend to trust her because she has shown herself to be open-minded and up to date with her knowledge and wisdom. I don't blame the Vets out here for their opinions/views as I think it is a case of what they have learnt and who they have available to learn from, and the facilities/finances we have (or more particularly don't have) to further that knowledge through research.

[pebbles]

I avoid chemicals like poison, which I guess they can be. The areas I've lived in with dogs is West Gippsland and now the Mallee. Except for once when I took a trip to NT with a Gordon Setter, I've never given heart worm medication and never had a problem. Never used tick treatment as the areas I've lived in haven't had that problem. Don't use flea treatments. Had a plague of fleas here when I moved in so had the exterminator go right over the property, used washes on the dogs until the problem was solved. Brought home a few fleas from a dog show once, washes used again on dogs, bedding etc. Worming is done as advised on pups but once they are over about the 12 months I take a faeces sample from each to the Vet about every 6 months. Over the years I've only had to worm very occasionally. Inoculations are given to the 14 months booster then no more. Never had skin allergies, food allergies, basically all have been very healthy, shiny coats, bright eyes, plenty of energy and live to old age. Actually the only disaster loss was with Ben, given Rymadil for strained back. Don't desex dogs or bitches,(that are in my yard) no pyro, no cancer or any other connected problems.

Maybe I've been lucky but after 50+ years of doing this, perhaps there's more than luck?

[Erny]

Nekhbet - thanks for the additional informative post.

I am taking everyone's comments on board and weighing things up. I think I would like to find 'moderality' (if that's a word?).

Will come back here to let you know what I ended up doing and with further info as it comes to hand.

[Erny]

Thanks for your report too, Pebbles. IF it is only 'luck' that has been on your side, then I hope it continues for many years to come.

I think back to the days of my childhood shared with the dogs over the many years, into early-mid adulthood.

Only wormed them occasionally.

Never gave heartworm preventative.

Never vaccinated beyond their puppy vaccinations.

Flea preventative to only one dog who suffered flea induced excema (back then we lived on flea congenial land, and what was available then - which was an ingestible flea treatment - is vastly different from what we do now, I think).

Washed the dogs every so often and used flea wash if necessary.

All the dogs lived to a good age with relatively little to no health issues along the way. It does make you wonder. Maybe like you, Pebbles, we were "lucky".

Edited October 25, 2008 by Erny

[InspectorRex]

Hi Erny and "Mandela"-

We use Dimmitrol Daily tablets for Heartworm Prevention you can buy these on the 'net for about $40 for 1000 tablets. Collies, as are many related breeds, sensitive to Ivermectin based drugs and related drugs(including Revolution).You can have a DNA Test done for many breeds for ivermectin sensitivity which is caused by a mutant MDR1 gene..Both Phoebe and Gracie have been DNA Tested and are Affected- this is very important as if they are Affected or Carriers there are amny other Vet drugs they CANNOT have due to the neuro-toxicity.

I went for the daily tablet as less drug into the system and easy to remember as I leave the jar next to their dinner plates.

If you want I can email you the list of drugs etc, just let me know.

Then every 3 months we use Popantel All-wormer to cover all the other worms including hydatid tapeworms.

good site to look at is www.miniaussierescue.org- it lists all the drugs affected/carriers should not be given.

I carry the list with me if I have to take one of the girls to the Vets and when they go into Boarding Kennels the Kennels are also given the list

For flea prevention we use Frontine Plus.

As others have stated once a dog is 6mths old you need a blood test before you commence any heartworm prevention regime

Edited October 26, 2008 by InspectorRex

[Erny]

As others have stated once a dog is 6mths old you need a blood test before you commence any heartworm prevention regime

Thanks IR :rolleyes:.

In regards to the above, the Vet informed me that a heartworm blood test isn't needed when using Revolution because it is "safe".

[pebbles]

Erny, I sometimes cringe when I read/hear about all the chemicals pushed into dogs. I realise there's some areas/times when it's necessary to use treatments but month after month of chemicals pushed into the system must have some adverse reactions.

So question - not being smart or anything - but why is it done? You will hear people say "my dog has never had a flea because he's dosed up with 'whatever'. How do they know they'd have fleas if they didn't dose? My old Vet. agreed with this and untypically explained to clients that unless they actually had a problem, it's not necessary to use anything.

[Erny]

Erny, I sometimes cringe when I read/hear about all the chemicals pushed into dogs. I realise there's some areas/times when it's necessary to use treatments but month after month of chemicals pushed into the system must have some adverse reactions.

Yes, I too Pebbles. And looking back in memory of my avatar girl, I ponder at times whether me "doing all the right things" by dosing her to prevent this and prevent that didn't actually exacerbate (if not "cause") the illness she was in all likelihood predisposed to. I don't blame myself - I can't, because there's no way of proving it one way or the other. But I wish I could have that time over and try it all another way. Of course, hindsight is a powerful thing and we all become experts with it. I am forever seeking that crystal ball so that foresight might become more powerful than hindsight. Wishful thinking .

Edited October 26, 2008 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

In regards to the above, the Vet informed me that a heartworm blood test isn't needed when using Revolution because it is "safe". confused.gif

errr no. No matter the preventitive it needs a test first, thats how we rolled.

I think my dogs have only had frontline once in their whole lives, I found a baby flea and dosed everyone. You are right pebbles I think that is another way the preventitives keep going as 'oh see you use them and there is no fleas'

hmm cut out the preventitives and see if you do or dont.

I remember seeing so many people with drooping faces when the boss said puppy needs X, Y, Z, etc etc etc this food, this wormer, heartworm, flea, mite, mange, vaccine. Its horrible by 6 months how many chemicals have been pumped into the puppy. Then there is the cost too. For the sake of a few fleas you need to spend a rediculous amount of money. And it is for what actually goes into the little vials.

Dont always trust what your vet says do your own research. I had my rottweiler injected with Baytril as a puppy when the label said not for use in puppies/kittens under 6 months as it causes bone growth problems. 'Oh but our other clinic used it for all parvo cases'. mmhmm and now i have a dog with bone problems especially the crooked hock joint. I'm digging but its hard to find information, and people have their 'preferences' despite the labels.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Golden Rules]

I avoid chemicals like poison, which I guess they can be. The areas I've lived in with dogs is West Gippsland and now the Mallee. Except for once when I took a trip to NT with a Gordon Setter, I've never given heart worm medication and never had a problem. Never used tick treatment as the areas I've lived in haven't had that problem. Don't use flea treatments. Had a plague of fleas here when I moved in so had the exterminator go right over the property, used washes on the dogs until the problem was solved. Brought home a few fleas from a dog show once, washes used again on dogs, bedding etc. Worming is done as advised on pups but once they are over about the 12 months I take a faeces sample from each to the Vet about every 6 months. Over the years I've only had to worm very occasionally. Inoculations are given to the 14 months booster then no more. Never had skin allergies, food allergies, basically all have been very healthy, shiny coats, bright eyes, plenty of energy and live to old age. Actually the only disaster loss was with Ben, given Rymadil for strained back. Don't desex dogs or bitches,(that are in my yard) no pyro, no cancer or any other connected problems.

Maybe I've been lucky but after 50+ years of doing this, perhaps there's more than luck?

I'm with you there Pebbles

Erny, I will be very interested to hear Jean Dodds response too.

Something else I always strive for is optimum immunity (diet, supplements, environmental etc) so that if ever a chemical is required for use, the side effects will hopefully be kept to a minimum.