tira_mia Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Hi all, This might seem a silly question for those of you that have dogs who listen to you ( ) but I'm at wits end with mine and need some new suggestions!! I have a 3 yr old BC who is a well behaved child (most of the time) at home with any sit/stay/heel training we do in the backyard. Similarly, he'll happily heel and walk alongside me off lead in the park (even with other dogs around) if I ask him to. When we take him to obedience training he'll also stay and heel (on and off lead) with no problems! But when we take him to agility training it's like he's a completely different dog altogether!! When it's not his turn and he's waiting he'll bark and carry on like there's no tomorrow, so I've taken to having to train obedience whilst waiting for our turn at agility - as long as his mind's occupied, he's fine. But recently he's taken to running away whilst DOING the equipment...one moment he'll be jumping over the jumps, and as soon as he sees a running dog doing other equipment, he's off to chase after them :rolleyes: Could I be doing something that's encouraging this behaviour, as he never used to run away whilst on course? i should add that he runs away to play with the other dogs, not to attack or anything..he just seems to see running dogs as an invitation to play !! Should I reward him if he comes back in order to keep him coming back, or does that just make it worse? I'm worried if i stop rewarding when he "comes", then he just wont come and will keep running away...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I took my 2 year old Dally to his first agility class last weekend and was a little concerned he would have the same response as your BC because it is such a stimulating environment. However, he worked really, really well and I think it came down to the fact that I have been working on focus, focus, focus (NOT a commonly found word in the Dalmatian vocabulary :rolleyes: ) in every and all situations. There was even a noisy scuffle between 2 dogs during an introductory chat - Zig got very excited and I just asked him to "watch" - he immediately looked me in the eye and calmed down. The problem is that running off and chasing dogs is a rewarding exercise in itself so you have to make staying with you worth while - I use food to train focus but whatever makes you dog tick I also reward really good focus at the park by then releasing Ziggy to lift his leg and play and hoon around like a teenage Dally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) Is your dog working for anything while doing agility, because that is what his mind should be on. Playing tug as a reward should be a good place to start. If his mind is focused on a reward, then he will stop dreaming up his own self reward. ETA Agreeing with TSD Edited October 23, 2008 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 thanks for the comments :rolleyes: He works for food as he's not toy motivated at all (we tried and tried but could never train it, so any suggestions on how to train toy motivation are welcome!!) - but could it be because i'm giving him food while we train the sits/stays whilst he waits for his turn....that he's not motivated by the same food when he does the course? TSD - what methods did you use to train focus? He happily does the "look at me" method...until he hears a dog clambering up an A-frame, and then he's off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 the dog is in heightened drive whilst doing the course and you're reward is not very interesting for him. He see's another dog and because you're lower down the scale of good things at that point in time he cant help himself and he runs off. yes. You're boring what I would do is get a new toy like a piece of labswool on a couple of thin rope handles and tether him up. Take away his toys while at home and tease him with it. Dont tease till he shuts down just run around madly and let him have it occasionally and praise the hell out of him. Then take the agility course step by step again, get him to jump then pull out the toy and madly 'COME ON GOOD DOG GOOD DOG!!" and let him grab the toy (watch fingers) you only have this toy, he never gets it you own it completely. He's barking because he's excited. You should use this as an opportunity with the tug toy to proof him - if he ignores the tug toy then no agility until he learns. Take a few steps back before you move foreward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 yes. You're boring :rolleyes: i turned around and asked BC if i was boring, and he just gave me this look to say..."you only JUST realised???" you only have this toy, he never gets it you own it completely. oh bugger...i guess that's why he's never learnt toy motivation, cuz we always leave hte toys out for him...*feels kinda stupid* thanks heaps, i'll work on the toy drive. one silly question - where can you get lambswool from? i can think of where to get ...lambswool rugs..or..boots made of lambswool..but they're really really expensive to shred for lambswool and wouldn't have the scent on it i'd think..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) yes. You're boring Take a few steps back before you move forward. I had to pick up these quotes from Nekhbet because they are spot on My dog only works for food as well so I'll stick to that. This is what I would do......firstly go back to working on focus around the house and then the park and then a busy training day - build up to it as slowly or as quickly as you need to. Let the dog know you have food but don't ask him to do anything - let HIM work out how to get a reward. Sometimes that means standing still in the middle of the dog park with your dog on lead busily sniffing and ignoring you - the second he looks you in the eye, click and treat. Don't ask him to watch - he needs to learn to look to you for direction. I went through a stage with Ziggy recently that no matter how good the treats were you could see him thinking: 'Oh stuff the treats, I know I can always get dinner tonight' So, I started feeding every scrap of food to him as a reward for training - my goodness, the change in him was astounding Sometimes I'll put a cup of dry food in my treat bag and practice a formal retrieve in the house - I'm shaping that behaviour so it takes a while....one biscuit for a good response and a handful for a big leap in understanding :rolleyes: Zig used to turn up his nose at the dry food if I tried to use them as treats outside the house....now he takes whatever he can get just in case that's the last opportunity Of course, I add a lovely mix of high value treats such as cooked chicken, raw chicken mince, 4 legs dog food etc to keep him guessing! ETA: I should add that Zig is extremely strong willed (has been since he was a puppy) and you really have to make everything he does worth his while. In terms of training (not for general behaviour around the house), anything other than a very positive, enthusiastic approach and he will give you 'the finger'. I must say, the club trainers on Sunday were pretty gob smacked by his responsiveness, focus and level of training as Dals don't always have the best reputation in this regard....it really has been a case of nutting out what makes him tick! Edited October 23, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) yup you need to deprive him a smidge. He's bored and you're as exciting as a mouldy sock .. maybe less so :rolleyes: It doesnt have to be scented just sometimes lambswool (go to the op shop and grab an old teddy or fake car seat coner) and make a foot long tube of it. Nice and squishy and your fingers wont get munched in the excitement. If you ONLY bring it out when he's excited and condition him that ooooh you only get this super duper exciting toy if you're good, watch him snap into action forget the food, sometimes dogs in prey wont take food or you bounce the drives food - prey - food - prey and since for him prey might be higher he buggers off DOnt feel silly at all - I see few clubs teach it because few people actually know 1) how to build drive and 2) how to use it. yeah they know the dog HAS drive but, yeah, thats as far as it goes Here read the little section on prey drive its the bare bones of how it works for the dog Edited October 23, 2008 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 thanks heaps Nekhbet and TSD!! :rolleyes: alright..from today onwards, less spoiling...and more working for praise and reward it's all starting to make sense now, 'cuz i've been told before that BC's used to demanding his way with me, but i never understood why this was a negative thing (i think a lot of people think it's cute if anything...until you actually run into behavioural problems!). but if i'm the keeper of any reward or praise , and only i can give it out...hopefully i'll be elevated past a mouldy sock . and now that you mention it TSD, BC *does* ignore food beacuse he knows he'll get dinner...! sorry, just thinking out loud. Thanks again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Agree with most of the above, but would also like to offer some advice from an agility perspective. What level of agility are you at & where do you train? I see lots of dogs losing focus on handlers in agility. Some make up their own course, some look for something else to do/chase & some just wander off sniffing. Just as there are lots of different results when dogs lose focus, there are also lot of reasons why they lose focus. Some clubs are just way too busy/ exciting/stressful for inexperienced dogs. Their brain goes into overload & keeping their concentration is hard. Some handlers allow their dogs to play with other dogs before & after class and then expect their dog to stay with them when they see their doggy friends having fun during class. Inexperienced handlers also make the mistake of asking too much of the dog before it is ready, ie long sequences. Dog loses focus. Related to the above, lots of people only ever reward at the end of a run, usually once the dog has sat or had the lead put on. In this case it is not the actual agility that is being rewarded but the sit or the lead. Late commands & poor body language (which most of us are guilty of when we start) also gives dogs the opportunity to find something else to do, since they don't know where to go. Harsh commands & blaming the dog for failure on something they do not know yet is another reason dogs will bow out & find something else to do. There are heaps more, but you get the gist. I am not saying any of the above applies to you, but in 8 years of training & instructing I have seen plenty of it and the result is always a loss of focus. I would recommend, if you are in a location that allows it, trying a smaller club or classes or privates. That way you can keep working on agility but can control the environment a bit more. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Vickie - some great points...this one in particular rings true for me.... Some handlers allow their dogs to play with other dogs before & after class and then expect their dog to stay with them when they see their doggy friends having fun during class. My Dally is an extremely sociable lad - when we arrived at the grounds last weekend I had quite a few looks of surprise when I insisted that Zig not interact with other dogs. I know him very well, however, and he has to learn that 'work' means 'work' and that does not include sniffing bottoms and having a play date. I also don't correct as such during training - only use a verbal non-reward marker and give him another opportunity to earn the reward - it keeps him really enthusiastic and focussed I also assume that if he stuffs up then I am not helping him understand what he has to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 hi Vickie, We train at Castle Hill with lots of other doggies, which is probably a major factor in the distraction. I don't know of any other smaller classes or private classes in my area though as i found this one through word of mouth...does anyone know any? i would love to take him to smaller classes as well just so we can actually get some agility done, as sometimes by the time it's his turn his attention's shot. Re playing - for example, yesterday was bad weather so we didn't do much training, and i let him play instead. Is it ok if we play during the bad weather classes, but not during normal classes..or does this confuse the dog too much? I'm not sure what level we're on as i would assume all clubs count levels differently...the Castle Hill club has beginner-green-yellow-blue/red (trialling levels). We're on yellow at the moment. I guess what's frustrating me is that he *can* do the courses when I have his attention - he's done it a lot of times before. But if his attention from me breaks at one particular moment he'll run away generally for the rest of that course and that training night is gone. I cant find me doing anything differently between these nights...and there's no pattern, it's a random occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) One other thing that I do - if ever when having a free run my Dal doesn't immediately return on command, I follow him, give him a non-reward marker ("Oh well"), snap the lead on and make him do controlled walking (no sniffing, no leg lifting nothing) - a few minutes, then he is released to do his own thing. He always recalls like a bullet after that is rewarded, then released again. Didn't take him long to learn that he could avoid all the hassle by coming back to me the first time! If I wanted to up it in a controlled training environment, I would quietly remove him (no yelling, no getting angry) and either put him in his crate or in the car. Leave him for a few minutes to calm down, get him out, reward for offered behaviours (such as focus) and proceed with training. They're smart little buggers!!!! ETA: If it's bad weather I'd be out in the rain doing obedience training or practising focus work under cover rather than letting my dog play. Edited October 24, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) One other thing that I do - if ever when having a free run my Dal doesn't immediately return on command, I follow him, give him a non-reward marker ("Oh well"), snap the lead on and make him do controlled walking (no sniffing, no leg lifting nothing) - a few minutes, then he is released to do his own thing. He always recalls like a bullet after that is rewarded, then released again. Didn't take him long to learn that he could avoid all the hassle by coming back to me the first time! If I wanted to up it in a controlled training environment, I would quietly remove him (no yelling, no getting angry) and either put him in his crate or in the car. Leave him for a few minutes to calm down, get him out, reward for offered behaviours (such as focus) and proceed with training. They're smart little buggers!!!! i can never catch my BC in agility ... once he's off i just have to keep calling until he comes back, because the boy runs like the wind. And depending on who's helping me with the training, i'm not sure if we should/shouldn't reward the coming back - if i dont, he might not come back int eh future, but if i do it could be rewarding the running away. Lately a trainer suggested I only say "good" when he comes back, but no treats, which we've started doing, but only the last 2 sessions so I'm yet to see if it'll make a difference - treats only happen when he's done parts of the course that deserve treating the nutsy thing is he'll come at first call whilst we're in the park ETA: but then i'm torn over when to let him play...because we don't have a lot of off-lead dogs in the park and he's not interested in most of them anyway, so i love letting him play with agility dogs: ONLY if we're not doing training that particular session. ugh, the heart vs the mind !! Edited October 24, 2008 by tiramia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Maybe you need to consider putting him back on lead and working on focus around the agility equipment....? Forget the equipment itself but practice handling him whilst being highly stimulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 What about going back to basics? One jump, reward. One jump, turn and reward. etc. I agree with the others re letting him play with the other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 And me Too much doggie play = Too much value put on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) I know Castle Hill well. You will probably find that once you move to Blue things will be a bit easier as the courses are more complex & need to be worked a bit more & there tends to be a much better overall level of control in the other dogs & heaps more space. How far are you off weaving? Catch 22 though I guess, b/c you probably need to get the running off under control before they will move you. As far as rewarding for coming back, I would (and I would certainly NEVER be harsh with him when he came back), but I would put 100% energy into avoiding the running off in the first place. If you continue to call him while he is running around like a loony, from his perspective the word come or his name begins to be associated with the running around rather than the coming. At best you are watering down the effectiveness of the word & this will start to filter into other areas of your life as well. As far as letting him play? Depends what is in your mind vs your heart? If you want to avoid the potential of an attack & you have plans to trial him one day then your mind should be telling you to not let him play at agility at least until he is 100% focussed on you & the equipment. I don't go to Castle Hill any more but I can guarantee that if he ran over to my dog while she was running on course, it would be a very unpleasant experience for him. What are you using as a reward? Whatever it is, I would double the size & tastiness of it & increase the frequency of giving it. Does he do balls or tugs? This would be my preference for a BC. And as Kavik said, take a few steps back. I can lend you a DVD that might help. Do you have any equipment at home? Jumps are pretty easy to build. I don't do or believe in leashed agility training. Unless you are VERY experienced you will correct the dog with the leash as it jumps. As far as somewhere else to go as well that is smaller. There is Paws for Fun on Sunday afternoons at Eric Mobbs Reserve Castle Hill. Canine Fun Sports, some weeknights at Castlereagh & Tus & Fri ams at St Ives. Are you stewarding at the trial on Saturday? or coming to watch? Maybe we will catch up then? Edited October 24, 2008 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tira_mia Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 he can weave relatively well and doesn't acutally run away - i think it's because the poles are so close together he doesn't look away from them, so he weaves . We're working on the last weaver with netting around it as he can't do the one without netting yet. I guess i'll have to stop the playing as it does sound like the message is getting confused for him. To be honest I never thought about trialling him - i brought him there initially just as something stimulating for him to do. I can't make Saturday as i have to work a real bummer, because I wanted to see what it would be like. I'll start working on the toy/tug, which might be more rewarding to him than treats...and we might pop back down to beginners for a week or two to just do one obstacle at a time to keep his attention span ON me. Is Paws for Fun similar to Castle Hill in the setup and style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Its pretty much all been covered but you need to have a decent recall WITHOUT the distraction of dogs/equipment before you add them in. Whats his recall like generally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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