stormie Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 (edited) Ruthless, I'm not sure exactly where in Sydney you are, but I'm more than willing to have a look for you! Plus our vet who oversees orbits treatment is pretty good with allergies (poor guy has to look at orbit every day and discuss every little lump and bump!!). Wise words from zayder I know of a couple of dogs who get quite bad staph infections through the spring/summer months, though don't scratch much. Something in their environment irritates the skin and breaks the natural barrier and the staph just goes nuts. Thankfully they don't scratch too bad with it, but it just gets worse if not treated. Edited December 5, 2008 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Wise words from zayder Thanks! I know of a couple of dogs who get quite bad staph infections through the spring/summer months, though don't scratch much. Something in their environment irritates the skin and breaks the natural barrier and the staph just goes nuts. Thankfully they don't scratch too bad with it, but it just gets worse if not treated. Yep, and staph overgrowth means that the immune system is just not coping, so you're leaving the dog prone to other issues too whilst they are trying to fight off the staph... Another one to watch out for if we didn't mention it back there somewhere is that sensitive skin people will often itch from contact with allergy dogs: you cross react to each other (I'm itching at the moment from Zayda)! So my reaction sometimes lets me know if the dogs are having an out break and I can get on to it even if I can't see any symptoms on the dog yet Good early warning system sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 Thanks ZA I wasn't being flippant, I just didn't realise there was so much to it! Ruthless, I'm not sure exactly where in Sydney you are, but I'm more than willing to have a look for you! Cool, I'll PM you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Thanks ZA I wasn't being flippant, I just didn't realise there was so much to it! No worries.... I didn't think you were Yeah, allergies are a lot more complex than people realise... its worth doing some research to have a look at symptoms etc. because there are plenty besides the itching... there's some good stuff out on the web if you search... also there's a difference between allergy and intolerances which most people don't realise either... At the end of the day I suppose the important thing to remember is that a dog that has true allergies has an immune system that isn't working properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Oh Ruth, seeing you've had paw issues this might be one to look out for too: When Asher has a bad reaction sometimes his paw pads will crack, peel and come off... that's one that we haven't seen in a while so I forgot... that's normally if his feet do get bad and he starts chewing at them, that's actually when we had to put him on antihistamines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Thanks ZA I wasn't being flippant, I just didn't realise there was so much to it! No worries.... I didn't think you were Yeah, allergies are a lot more complex than people realise... its worth doing some research to have a look at symptoms etc. because there are plenty besides the itching... there's some good stuff out on the web if you search... also there's a difference between allergy and intolerances which most people don't realise either... At the end of the day I suppose the important thing to remember is that a dog that has true allergies has an immune system that isn't working properly. It's amazing how much there is to learn about atopy etc huh. I have learnt so much through this process and there's still tonnes I don't know. But having a plan to follow with an eventual target really helps get through it all. Zayder I really admire your determination and you have helped me and so many others enormously. This is a thread that everyone with an atopic pet should read, to know that there are things you can do and potential treatments out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Ugh! I sympathize... we certainly have a pair!! The thing that was such a big shock for me (if I didn't say this already) was that her original test way back only came up with one positive, so I was expecting maybe a few, but not the whole damned thing!! Thanks, and I agree, it is a shock to see so many reactions on them, poor things Another one to watch out for if we didn't mention it back there somewhere is that sensitive skin people will often itch from contact with allergy dogs: you cross react to each other (I'm itching at the moment from Zayda)! Oh do I feel dumb - I thought I had suddenly become allergic to peanuts but instead I realise I'm just TDs allergy indicator also there's a difference between allergy and intolerances which most people don't realise either...At the end of the day I suppose the important thing to remember is that a dog that has true allergies has an immune system that isn't working properly. I guess I have some more research to do, as well as a diary to keep. I have both allergies and intolerances myself, but don't know about how to check for intolerance with fur people. When the ENT wanted to do remove my sons tonsils, adenoids and put gromits in his ears. I treated him symptomatically, made sure he ate no junk food and boosted his immune system with suppliments. It worked and he didn't end up needing the op. Can this sort of approach work with boosting a dogs immune system? Unfortunately, I can't get away with not giving flea and heartworm treatments. Fleas are one of his allergens and with the climate up here there aren't many (if any) weeks in the year when fleas and mozzies are inactive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (edited) Zayder I really admire your determination and you have helped me and so many others enormously. This is a thread that everyone with an atopic pet should read, to know that there are things you can do and potential treatments out there. Thanks heaps Stormie... that means a lot to me I've always said that I hoped that what I've learned with my guys could be shared and help others who found themselves on the same journey, so I'm really happy that its made a difference for you It's amazing how much there is to learn about atopy etc huh. I have learnt so much through this process and there's still tonnes I don't know. But having a plan to follow with an eventual target really helps get through it all. There's heaps to learn, its a fascinating topic, although it would've been nice not to have to have so much up close experience! A plan of attack makes such a difference, for me anyway... I have a chart and list of "to do" things written up now, what foods we need to re-test, our immunotherapy schedule... it all helps to have a plan, keep a reaction log and know from that what might need tweaking etc. Thanks, and I agree, it is a shock to see so many reactions on them, poor things Support is really important on this journey... it makes such a difference to talk to people going through the same thing... So feel free guys to drop me a line if you ever need someone to talk to or vent at etc. :D Oh do I feel dumb - I thought I had suddenly become allergic to peanuts but instead I realise I'm just TDs allergy indicator That gave me a laugh! Our Derms ask that as a question on the intake forums "do you find your dog makes you itchy"... I find you acclimatise or get used to your own dogs... now my guys only make me itch or welt if they are really bad... but friends or clients with allergic dogs, they will set me off real quick, I've even been able to suggest some clients check their dogs out after they've made me itch and I've asked more about it and there are some "classic" signs present... I guess I have some more research to do, as well as a diary to keep. I have both allergies and intolerances myself, but don't know about how to check for intolerance with fur people. Its much the same as it is with people... Here's a definition of the difference (human example though so symptoms will be different): http://www.disability.vic.gov.au/dsonline/...ce?opendocument In dogs intolerances will often resolve if the food is presented differently (raw vs cooked for example)... This is where you often hear people claim their dogs "allergies" were cured by a raw diet or similar (of course we know there's no cure for the true allergy). I find with Zayda that she is so sensitive that a kibble sized piece of food will trigger a major reaction and its within that immediate time after eating (digestion time), where as the things she is intolerant of are definitely on that build up to threshold point. So what is described in that definition rings true for us. Symptoms of both are quite similar so its up to actual testing to see if there is the immune response... so it all tends to get grouped together as "adverse food reactions" (in both people and animals). When the ENT wanted to do remove my sons tonsils, adenoids and put gromits in his ears. I treated him symptomatically, made sure he ate no junk food and boosted his immune system with suppliments. It worked and he didn't end up needing the op. Can this sort of approach work with boosting a dogs immune system? Yes, definitely... this is a lot of how I've managed my guys and kept them in condition. Unfortunately, I can't get away with not giving flea and heartworm treatments. Fleas are one of his allergens and with the climate up here there aren't many (if any) weeks in the year when fleas and mozzies are inactive Some people / areas seem to have worse problems with fleas... Both my guys and myself are flea allergic and we never treat!! Never had fleas, and believe me, we would know if we did!! I do keep capstar and program on hand in case... Heartworm is the only thing I give regularly. And its not that my dogs don't go out either: we do sports, dogs come with me to do consultations, visit parks and canine for classes etc... I Do know some people here who have had flea issues, but I'm certainly not amongst them... when we did tracking (in the bush) I would spray with neem & lavender and check them over closely for tics / fleas, we've never had a one... we don't have paralysis tics here which makes things a bit easier... ETA: minimal chemicals are good for allergy dogs... effects their immune system and they can also sensitise to them... its worth reading up on the different chems too and seeing what else they treat, for example some heartwormers do cover other worms etc. Obviously area and proliferation of fleas or whatever will effect what you can and can't do.. Edited December 6, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 We went out for a few hours yesterday and left the dogs in their runs with bones. I think the flies were particularly bad as Ivan's ears are a bit scabby today. Trixe is covered in scabby lumps on her back and sides, so is it possible she's allergic to the fly bites? What action should I take? She doesn't seem uncomfortable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 (edited) Vet check and find out what it is... that does sound like it could be staph infection, which can creep up over time, so she might have all come up yesterday, but its been brewing for a while (or she was exposed to more pollens being out)... or it could be bites: my guys are allergic to some things like horse flies etc. so yes, that's a possibility... need to find out what it actually is, then you will know what you need to start doing from there... Time to find that vet! Edited December 8, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Ok, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Good luck with her and let us know how you go... I know we have had horse fly bites precipitate a staph infection here with Asher, so its possible that one has caused the other too... but if it is staph then that's probably a good clue that it might be time to start looking deeper at what is causing it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 I've made an appointment to see the vet this afternoon. Her flare up from fly bites on Sunday has subsided since I bathed her in Malaseb last night, so she doesn't look too bad. Hopefully they can still help. I've gotten to a point where I find DOL more helpful than any vets I go to They said on the phone that they can refer me to a specialist if needs be and if so I have two DOLer recommendations to request. I'll report back later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 (edited) Well good to hear she is feeling better They can always do the cytology to see if there is a bacterial infection in the skin, even if it has subsided... so you can ask about that too if you need to ETA: Make sure you mention it responded to the malaseb... that's a pretty good clue as its a medicated shampoo for bacterial infection...:cool: Edited December 8, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 Just as well that I took Trixie to the vet yesterday as she had a big abscess between her toes It must've come up overnight cause I checked her feet after her bath the night before. It's either an ingrown hair, a grass seed or some other foreign body. She's had it twice before but it's gone away on it's own. She had it lanced and was soooo unhappy about it and sooked all night The vet wrapped it up cause it was bleeding so Trixie was struggling to get around [except when Daddy came home and she somehow managed to run to the front door ]. She was lying on her bed last night and suddenly jumped up and ran over to me and put a paw on the lounge waiting to be invited up. When I nodded she climbed up and burrowed her head under my arm and stayed there for the rest of the night. So tough! [if lancing doesn't solve the problem she may need surgery.] Regarding her allergies ... the vet said we've done a very good job of keeping her comfortable She said she seems to have a flea allergy and a contact allergy and her recent flare up could've been cause by a reaction to fly bites. She explained that she could have several mild allergies that are being kept in check with the Phenergen and it wouldn't take much to push her over the edge and cause an outbreak. She didn't feel she was atopic and said to focus on eradicating all fleas from her environment [treat all the dogs either daily with Permoxin or fortnightly with Advantix and spray the garden with Permoxin regularly] and up her antihistamine dosage to 1 x 25mg Phenergen twice daily and see how she goes. She's also put her on a 3 week course of antibiotics without cortisone to rule out the possibility that bacterial infection is the source of the skin irritation. I've to go back in 2-3 weeks to reassess. There was talk about feeding her a special Hills kibble for 6 weeks and if that didn't fix things then she'd refer me to a dermatoligist for an Atopica trial. Here's a pic I took with my phone last night ... misery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 ETA: Make sure you mention it responded to the malaseb... that's a pretty good clue as its a medicated shampoo for bacterial infection... Damn, only just saw this. I think I mentioned it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ok, there's a few things I don't get in the info the vet has given you... so I'll run through them: Just as well that I took Trixie to the vet yesterday as she had a big abscess between her toes It must've come up overnight cause I checked her feet after her bath the night before. It's either an ingrown hair, a grass seed or some other foreign body. She's had it twice before but it's gone away on it's own. Ok, ever heard of interdigital cysts? Quite often linked with atopy... They're not really cysts, but a deep pyoderma. http://www.barkbytes.com/medical/med0025.htm http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/INTERDIGITAL-FURUNCLES.HTM Regarding her allergies ... the vet said we've done a very good job of keeping her comfortable Always nice to hear! She said she seems to have a flea allergy and a contact allergy and her recent flare up could've been cause by a reaction to fly bites. Fleas are quite common for allergies, as are other insects like horse flies and even house flies... and can cause secondary bacterial skin infection! We see staph with Asher.... What makes her say contact allergy? They aren't all that common... She explained that she could have several mild allergies that are being kept in check with the Phenergen and it wouldn't take much to push her over the edge and cause an outbreak. Absolutely possible... She didn't feel she was atopic Now this makes me wonder... Atopy is by far the most common form of allergy in dogs... its really uncommon to see a dog that has other allergies and not atopy... Until her retesting Zayda was considered an oddity because she had one known atopy and all food allergies, very uncommon... as we can see she developed a boatload more! If a dog has allergies its normal to suspect atopy as the top culprit and work down from there depending on symptoms... Also I would suspect that atopy would be the most likely to respond and be kept in check with only antihistamines... so that fact that she's responded so well with antihistamines could be a big clue there... She's also put her on a 3 week course of antibiotics without cortisone to rule out the possibility that bacterial infection is the source of the skin irritation. Did she do the simple and cheap cytology to check for bacterial infection on the skin (rub a slide on infected area and look under microscope - my vets do this all the time, take half a min and I have the results straight away)? For staph infection the standard course is 30 days... its stubborn to treat and may clear whilst on a shorter course, but will often reappear as soon as you stop it. But then if she didn't do the cytology you don't know what you are treating either (staph, yeast, rod shaped bacteria...) There was talk about feeding her a special Hills kibble for 6 weeks That would be the start of an elimination diet (probably was z/d ultra)... does she suspect food allergies? Why? Why go through an unneeded elimination diet? Esp. if you may have to re-do it with a derm anyway!? And I wouldn't do it with kibble anyway, use a novel protein and carb, she'll be much more interested in that - z/d is boring bland!! dermatoligist for an Atopica trial No derm worth their salt is going to whack you on atopica without testing to see what the cause of issues are... Atopica is just another drug (cyclosporin, which is an immune suppressant), so if they put you on it without knowing if its suitable I would run away very quickly! And why would she suggest atopica if she's sure she's not atopic?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Here's a pic I took with my phone last night ... misery! Aw, sad face! Such performers aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 interesting post here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=117892 and here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=150567 on atopica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 Before reading the rest, please bear in mind that I've a terrible memory and I asked her could I write stuff down but she said she'd give me a report, which she did, but it doesn't cover everything that we talked about. --- She said fleas and contact allergies based on where the reactions were [fleas = backend, contact = sides and flanks]. I think she said her atopy areas weren't affected [as you say, that could be due to the Phenegen]. It's altogether possible I made that bit up though I asked about the cytology test and she said all her infections had scabbed over and were healing so it wouldn't pick up the bacteria that needed testing. The elimination diet and atopia were mentioned as last resorts really. I don't think she felt Trixie was that bad. --- I think I should print out your reply and bring it with me to my next visit! There's a lot to question by the looks of things!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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