Zayda_asher In Here!

[ruthless]

We got Trixie at the end of April, so we haven't gone through an allergy season with her yet. Chopper and Angel suffer a bit so we do the whole fish oil, weekly baths and anti-hystamine thing with them during the summer months. A few days ago we noticed Trixie was very red on her stomach so we bathed her and started her on the phenergen. I also noticed above her anus, at the base of the underneath of her tail is red raw. I think she's been chewing it. I put Kerri lotion on the affected areas sometimes, but she just licks it off.

I wouldn't think anything of it if the other two were itchy as well, but they aren't. Any idea what it could be and any suggestions on anything else I could be doing to ease her discomfort?

[Her diet hasn't changed in any way, so I'm pretty sure it's a grass/pollen thing]

[zayda_asher]

The areas certainly sound like atopic (air borne) allergies... Have you looked at her feet too? Both tops and bottoms and all feet (dogs seem to be personal in where e.g.: Zayda's is top, in between toes, with the right rear worst, but all feet where as Asher is underneath and only rear feet). Are her ears red or does she shake head a lot? Snore? Runny nose? Snotty eyes?

There's a product called resichlor that is great for doing places like feet / tail... yeah, they will lick, but just try and prevent them for a little while for it to soak in... my guys give in pretty quickly now as long as I'm persistent in stopping them to start with.

What does of fish oil and what does of antihistamines are you giving... remember she's a bigger dog than the others...

The important thing to understand with allergies is they develop over time so they are most likely to be allergic to the things they are most commonly exposed to... how old is she roughly? Therapeutic dose for fish oil is a 1000mg per 5 kilos. Some people also have success with Evening primrose and Borage (starflower) oils.

Check her for flea dirt too as that's a common allergy... and often is near the back end where they are bitten.

Its hard to know unless you actually fork over for the testing... and its hard to treat too because sometimes they are actually developing allergies to the things we use to treat them (for example Asher is allergic to tea tree, which is in 99.9% of alternative skin care products)...

[ruthless]

Thanks for getting back to me

The areas certainly sound like atopic (air borne) allergies... Have you looked at her feet too? Both tops and bottoms and all feet (dogs seem to be personal in where e.g.: Zayda's is top, in between toes, with the right rear worst, but all feet where as Asher is underneath and only rear feet). Are her ears red or does she shake head a lot? Snore? Runny nose? Snotty eyes?

Her feet got really bad when we first got her. Top and bottom on all four. Again, it's something we've been through before with Angel, so we knew to wash them everyday in Malaseb, dry thoroughly and apply Neocort and make sure she wasn't allowed to lick them. They cleared up. Very slowly. It hasn't happened again thankfully.

If you were to take her ear and fold it back, it's red along the fold. Angel tries to lick it a lot, but she does it to Chopper too. I don't think it's infected.

I'm constantly wiping discharge from the corner of her eyes. Way more than the other two.

There's a product called resichlor that is great for doing places like feet / tail... yeah, they will lick, but just try and prevent them for a little while for it to soak in... my guys give in pretty quickly now as long as I'm persistent in stopping them to start with.

Is it for cleaning or soothing?

What does of fish oil and what does of antihistamines are you giving... remember she's a bigger dog than the others...

The important thing to understand with allergies is they develop over time so they are most likely to be allergic to the things they are most commonly exposed to... how old is she roughly? Therapeutic dose for fish oil is a 1000mg per 5 kilos. Some people also have success with Evening primrose and Borage (starflower) oils.

Angel won't eat the fish oil caps so we buy a huge bottle of Sprint Oil and squirt about 2 tbsps on their meals. It's not something we're too measured with. They don't always get it, sometimes they get it twice a day.

I'm giving them the lower dose Phenergen once a day. I think it's 10mg.

Check her for flea dirt too as that's a common allergy... and often is near the back end where they are bitten.

Flea dirt How dare you I honestly don't think she has any. I've never seen one on her. We kind overdo it with the flea treatments They get Spectrum and Advantix every 6-8wks and a Permoxin rinse after their baths.

Its hard to know unless you actually fork over for the testing... and its hard to treat too because sometimes they are actually developing allergies to the things we use to treat them (for example Asher is allergic to tea tree, which is in 99.9% of alternative skin care products)...

I don't think it's a major issue just yet, but I would like to get it under control before Summer fully hits. If it continues we'll look into having some tests done. Thanks for your help

[zayda_asher]

Thanks for getting back to me

No worries!

Her feet got really bad when we first got her. Top and bottom on all four. Again, it's something we've been through before with Angel, so we knew to wash them everyday in Malaseb, dry thoroughly and apply Neocort and make sure she wasn't allowed to lick them. They cleared up. Very slowly. It hasn't happened again thankfully.

Malaseb daily is pretty harsh (would dry and irritate). I do that fortnightly (or weekly if BAD) with their bath and use the resichlor and a Pau D'arco rinse in between. Actually I don't use Malaseb at all any more because my guys started reacting to it and we couldn't work out why (Derm was stumped as well!) so now we use Episoothe and Aloveen conditioner (can't use ES conditioner as it has propylene glycol and Asher has a severe reaction to it). If they are that bad antibiotics are useful too sometimes depending on the the grade of infection and the bacteria - they would have helped you clear it quicker for future ref. I use Elocon .1% cream only if at the end of the tether. I always save steroid treatment for the "big guns"...

Grape Fruit Seed extract rinses (about 70-80 drops in 24foz (don't ask me to convert that sorry)) works well. Its helped with Asher's staph infections a lot.

If you were to take her ear and fold it back, it's red along the fold. Angel tries to lick it a lot, but she does it to Chopper too. I don't think it's infected.

Hmmm, interesting that it's localised in that sense... watch them... see if they ever come up like her belly. I'd keep an eye on both their ears then... I spoke to my vet and colleagues (Behvaviour consults) at length about this sort of behaviour and a bit of grooming is normal, but if its obsessive / compulsive it an often indicate a change in ear (or mouth too) health (unless Angel is just OCD ) Learn what they smell like when normal (and breath too) as these can change with infection.

I'm constantly wiping discharge from the corner of her eyes. Way more than the other two.

Mm-hm, she is starting to sound pretty symptomatic Keep and eye on the colour of the snot too... that can indicate infection as well. We use Patanol antihistamine eye drops when the eyes are bad, you need a script. Their human and the best ones I've used too!

Does she ever get a discharge from her vulva and what are her poos like (sloppy, jelly coated, nice etc.). Scratch at her mouth / rub her eyes?

Is it for cleaning or soothing?

Both Its basically Chlorhexidene (antibacterial - you know the pink stuff they use at surgeries?) in a lotion... much more soothing and it coats the area. We've also had success with Lamisil (depending on bacteria) for tail and toes.

Angel won't eat the fish oil caps so we buy a huge bottle of Sprint Oil and squirt about 2 tbsps on their meals. It's not something we're too measured with. They don't always get it, sometimes they get it twice a day.

I'm giving them the lower dose Phenergen once a day. I think it's 10mg.

Right... Fish oil daily and at therapeutic dose or you might get a shiny coat and not much else! Antihistamine dose is prolly too low too. For comparison Asher is 31k and Zayda is 23k, we split the diff on the caps and they get 5 each (4 Salmon oil and 1 EPO) daily and 25mg Phenergan 2 x daily. I can tell when the antihistamines wear off before next dose too...

Flea dirt eek1.gif How dare you

Sorry Not a nice thought is it? Sad thing is though that one flea bite will trigger reaction in an allergic dog so you may not even know its happened! And You guys are having issues with fleas over that way aren't you?

I honestly don't think she has any. I've never seen one on her. We kind overdo it with the flea treatmentsThey get Spectrum and Advantix every 6-8wks and a Permoxin rinse after their baths.

Our guys are often sensitive to chemicals so that's something to bare in mind... Also daisies are a common allergy and Pyrethrum is daisy family... I actually don't use anything on my guys unless I need to and Asher is flea allergic... He's horror sensitive to chemicals though and allergic to daisies so no pyreth either

I don't think it's a major issue just yet, but I would like to get it under control before Summer fully hits. If it continues we'll look into having some tests done. Thanks for your help

Sounds like she's developing a nice symptom pattern there... good luck with her... feel free to ask away with any questions

Oh and what do they eat? Storage mites are turning out to be a major trigger for a lot of dogs (dried food stuffs) and many insects trigger allergies so you can try repellents (again be aware of whats in them: we use neem and lavender oil when needed).

[zayda_asher]

Oh and was she vaccinated recently? Vaccination has been found to effect a dog's ability to cope with atopy.

[ruthless]

Seems I asked the right person

Malaseb daily is pretty harsh (would dry and irritate). I do that fortnightly (or weekly if BAD) with their bath and use the resichlor and a Pau D'arco rinse in between. Actually I don't use Malaseb at all any more because my guys started reacting to it and we couldn't work out why (Derm was stumped as well!) so now we use Episoothe and Aloveen conditioner (can't use ES conditioner as it has propylene glycol and Asher has a severe reaction to it). If they are that bad antibiotics are useful too sometimes depending on the the grade of infection and the bacteria - they would have helped you clear it quicker for future ref. I use Elocon .1% cream only if at the end of the tether. I always save steroid treatment for the "big guns"...

Grape Fruit Seed extract rinses (about 70-80 drops in 24foz (don't ask me to convert that sorry)) works well. Its helped with Asher's staph infections a lot.

It was only on her feet that we used it. I forgot, we had some ABs we gave her too. We try to avoid letting them get so bad they need vet visits and ABs though!

Unless Angel is just OCD

Joking aside, I think she is! If she's licking one of the others a lot in the same area we'll generally check to see if there's something there, but there often isn't. She's just really annoying They're separated when we're not around, so it's easy enough to stop her.

Does she ever get a discharge from her vulva and what are her poos like (sloppy, jelly coated, nice etc.). Scratch at her mouth / rub her eyes?

Never noticed a discharge from her vulva. I've noticed the others sniffing her there a bit, but I thought it was the raw tail they were going for. No scratching her mouth or rubbing her eyes. From the get go I've always thought she had kinda red eyes, she had pretty bad kennel cough so I attributed it to that, but they never looked "normal".

Both Its basically Chlorhexidene (antibacterial - you know the pink stuff they use at surgeries?) in a lotion... much more soothing and it coats the area. We've also had success with Lamisil (depending on bacteria) for tail and toes.

I'll try and get some. We use the pink liquid to clean/disinfect and then apply Neocort. On pretty much every skin complaint

Right... Fish oil daily and at therapeutic dose or you might get a shiny coat and not much else! Antihistamine dose is prolly too low too. For comparison Asher is 31k and Zayda is 23k, we split the diff on the caps and they get 5 each (4 Salmon oil and 1 EPO) daily and 25mg Phenergan 2 x daily. I can tell when the antihistamines wear off before next dose too...

Trixie's about 22kgs. I'll up the dosage and see how we go. She'll eat anything [except ABs!] so the caps shouldn't be a problem.

Sorry Not a nice thought is it? Sad thing is though that one flea bite will trigger reaction in an allergic dog so you may not even know its happened! And You guys are having issues with fleas over that way aren't you?

Our guys are often sensitive to chemicals so that's something to bare in mind... Also daisies are a common allergy and Pyrethrum is daisy family... I actually don't use anything on my guys unless I need to and Asher is flea allergic... He's horror sensitive to chemicals though and allergic to daisies so no pyreth either

Sounds like she's developing a nice symptom pattern there... good luck with her... feel free to ask away with any questions

Bloody hell, there's a lot to think about! Thanks again. I take it you've been through the wars with your two? What age are they? The pound reckoned Trixie was two back in April. That's all we have to go by. Are yours from a breeder? Are Trixie's ailments the result of BYBing or can it happen to well bred dogs too?

Oh and what do they eat? Storage mites are turning out to be a major trigger for a lot of dogs (dried food stuffs) and many insects trigger allergies so you can try repellents (again be aware of whats in them: we use neem and lavender oil when needed).

They get Eukanuba with fish/meat, bones a few times a week. Cabanossi or frankfurters at dog training.

Oh and was she vaccinated recently? Vaccination has been found to effect a dog's ability to cope with atopy.

She got vacc'd and desexed in April.

[Quickasyoucan]

This is really interesting guys, Jake had lumpy under his armpits, itchy skin during past summers up until last year.

I was feeding Eukanuba too Ruth but have changed to Eagle Pack. Have to say his coat is much better and so far no itchies this summer.

I have a question too, on Jakes belly the bit with no hair which is generally grey black, there are what looks like white pigmentation spots, flat not raised. Is that likely to be old scar tissue from allergies? it is pretty much over all the hairless bit around his belly button and willy. Not inflamed not itchy?

[zayda_asher]

Apparently you can only quote so many times in one post so this is a two parter!

It was only on her feet that we used it. I forgot, we had some ABs we gave her too. We try to avoid letting them get so bad they need vet visits and ABs though!

Definitely try not to let them get that bad!! Prevention is better and all that... make sure you dry their toes well if wet too, that helps. And be aware that sometimes you need to repeat course if it gets that bad... with Staph for example a standard 7 day course isn't enough, it will bring it under control, but it will just break out again normally unless you do a month long course (horrible!)... so they can be quite stubborn.

Joking aside, I think she is! If she's licking one of the others a lot in the same area we'll generally check to see if there's something there, but there often isn't. She's just really annoying laugh.gif They're separated when we're not around, so it's easy enough to stop her.

Hah! Well there's a behviour issue for you to have fun with... licking can be OCD - its one of the things we ask about on our Behavioural questionnaires - common with anxious dogs.

Never noticed a discharge from her vulva. I've noticed the others sniffing her there a bit, but I thought it was the raw tail they were going for. No scratching her mouth or rubbing her eyes. From the get go I've always thought she had kinda red eyes, she had pretty bad kennel cough so I attributed it to that, but they never looked "normal".

Certainly could be her tail... but something to keep an eye on... and look for the other things as an escalation in symptoms (although certainly dogs display their own patterns and may not have all or even most of the "classics" while others have the whole kit!).

Do here eye lids droop (bottom ones)? Its something that they shouldn't do and I find it helps get things in and irritate the eye... Asher really suffers...

I'll try and get some. We use the pink liquid to clean/disinfect and then apply Neocort. On pretty much every skin complaint

Cool... we used to use it straight... cream is much easier!

Trixie's about 22kgs. I'll up the dosage and see how we go. She'll eat anything [except ABs!] so the caps shouldn't be a problem.

Consult with your vet re: antihistamines... always good to do in consult... but be aware a lot of local vets know not much about allergies and don't treat that well... that's why specialists are good.

Edited October 23, 2008 by zayda_asher

[zayda_asher]

Bloody hell, there's a lot to think about! Thanks again.

Yep, heaps! And no worries

I take it you've been through the wars with your two? What age are they?

Yep... big wars! My guys are both extremely sensitive.... Zayda came home at 7 weeks scratching (extremely unusual) and was a mess before we sorted it. Asher had a more regular pattern of development and was tested at 1.5yrs. Zayda is 7yrs in Jan and Asher has just turned 5. We found both ours had a sensitivity / adjustment phase around 4.5yrs, although our Derm says that just goes to show our guys aren't normal as they've never seen it happen like that bang on cue before and not with the same severity! They are both used as case studies for her classes which is an odd honour!! Have you ever seen the list of their allergies - I can post if you want. Atopic dogs do tend to worsen with age, esp. if not treated or poorly treated.

The pound reckoned Trixie was two back in April. That's all we have to go by. Are yours from a breeder? Are Trixie's ailments the result of BYBing or can it happen to well bred dogs too?

Well she is in the prime age for symptom development: normally 6mnts to 3ish yrs... although it can obviously be earlier or later too.

Zayda is a whoops cross from an idiot and Asher is purebred, from a breeder. He was our attempt to avoid allergies <sigh> It happens to both and does happen to the best sometimes... Allergies are poorly understood by most and many deny or fail to understand that they are heritable so breed with allergy dogs... Or don't even recognize or know that its in the lines... I think its slowly becoming something responsible people are talking more about.

They get Eukanuba with fish/meat, bones a few times a week. Cabanossi or frankfurters at dog training.

Interestingly enough I hear a lot of AmStaff people saying their dogs do really poorly on Euk... you may want to ask on the AST forums... And you could try freezing the dried food as that kills storage mites...

She got vacc'd and desexed in April.

I have a paper from the study done... if you want give me an e-mail and I can send it on with some articles from Dr Dodds... Its pretty science-ish so a hard read though... (Dodds articles are nicer!). Dr Dodds called it a "landmark" piece of research when I spoke to her... She recommends to avoid revaccination for the atopic dog!

Seems I asked the right person

Thanks... I am always happy to share knowledge and help those who care...

[zayda_asher]

This is really interesting guys, Jake had lumpy under his armpits, itchy skin during past summers up until last year.

I was feeding Eukanuba too Ruth but have changed to Eagle Pack. Have to say his coat is much better and so far no itchies this summer.

I have a question too, on Jakes belly the bit with no hair which is generally grey black, there are what looks like white pigmentation spots, flat not raised. Is that likely to be old scar tissue from allergies? it is pretty much over all the hairless bit around his belly button and willy. Not inflamed not itchy?

Could've been staph infection, hives or bites...

On his tummy are they round spots? Did he have the lumps there? Yes, they sound like scarring from staph infection... that's typically what it looks like, poor Asher has them... I can try and get a pic if you want... or you can try for pic to show us!

[Quickasyoucan]

This is really interesting guys, Jake had lumpy under his armpits, itchy skin during past summers up until last year.

I was feeding Eukanuba too Ruth but have changed to Eagle Pack. Have to say his coat is much better and so far no itchies this summer.

I have a question too, on Jakes belly the bit with no hair which is generally grey black, there are what looks like white pigmentation spots, flat not raised. Is that likely to be old scar tissue from allergies? it is pretty much over all the hairless bit around his belly button and willy. Not inflamed not itchy?

Could've been staph infection, hives or bites...

On his tummy are they round spots? Did he have the lumps there? Yes, they sound like scarring from staph infection... that's typically what it looks like, poor Asher has them... I can try and get a pic if you want... or you can try for pic to show us!

Can you do me a pic for comparison purposes ! That would be great. I look at them and wonder if I should be worried? They are just as if you had had a rash it had gone down and left you with white discolouration. I don't recall many lumps there, sometimes he used to scratch there and get a bit scabby but I generally he used to be more itchy by his tail and under his armpits.

As I said much better now we are off the Eukanuba.

He does have quite gooberish eyes tho (that's a technical term don't you know! ) After sleep generally.

[zayda_asher]

I'll try and get one today... might have to wait until Glen gets home to help out

[Quickasyoucan]

I'll try and get one today... might have to wait until Glen gets home to help out

Thanks that would be great.

PS he's a staffy x (rescue with a bit of kelpie I think) too.

And when you are finished with him I need help with my itchy skin too!!! We both suffer.

[ruthless]

Yeah, I think I have those documents, I can't bring myself to read them though People I respect have told me the pitfalls of over vaccinating so we're not doing it any more. Our training club accepts titre tests and if we ever need to kennel our dogs we know somewhere that accepts TTs as well.

I did see people on the LAST saying their dogs didn't do well on Eukanuba. We were going to switch to raw, but we were warned about stinky farts, which really put me off! I'll speak to OH about trying an alternative.

Do her eye lids droop (bottom ones)?

Yeah, you can kinda see it a little bit in this pic. I photoshopped out the eye goo

One more thing. She has some white heads on her tummy that aren't like normal whiteheads. They're rock hard. Have you seen that before?

Have you ever seen the list of their allergies - I can post if you want.

Do it

[zayda_asher]

And when you are finished with him I need help with my itchy skin too!!! We both suffer. smile.gif

Meh. Me too!

Yeah, I think I have those documents, I can't bring myself to read them though

lol... ok then... as long as you know

but we were warned about stinky farts

Hasn't made a bit of diff to my guys... But allergy dogs often have digestive issues anyway... as long as they are healthy in the gut we get the occasional fart like most creatures... no sweat. My guys are on full raw and eat veg.

Yeah, you can kinda see it a little bit in this pic. I photoshopped out the eye goo

Yeah, she looks like she's got some mild ectropian (eye lids roll out)... that's heritable too... and they will get eye issues from it... Asher does too...

One more thing. She has some white heads on her tummy that aren't like normal whiteheads. They're rock hard. Have you seen that before?

Hmmm, could be blocked pores... or hives perhaps... Staph infection comes up like pimples too and sometimes their hard... I think I'd get that vet checked to make sure...

Do it

You asked for it! For anyone who happens to look back at old posts you will prolly see we've added to the list since I last posted most likely <sigh>

Zayda

Food:

Beef

Lamb

Corn

Tuna

Sardines

Alfalfa

and an intolerance for eggs

Atopic:

Alternaria mould

Insect:

Wasps

Bees

(Possible Anaphylaxis developing)

Asher

Atopic:

Dandelion (All daisy family)

Melaleuca (Tea Tree and related family)

Fleas

cocksfoot grass

Johnson grass

Yellow dock weed

Deer Flys

Dust mites

Fodder mites

Contact:

Propylene Glycol (used in shampoos, ear cleaners, spot ons, vaccinations, semi-moist foods etc.)

Sensitivities:

Many chemicals and preservatives

Both dogs also now react to Malaseb Shampoo

[jenz0r]

One more thing. She has some white heads on her tummy that aren't like normal whiteheads. They're rock hard. Have you seen that before?

Hmmm, could be blocked pores... or hives perhaps... Staph infection comes up like pimples too and sometimes their hard... I think I'd get that vet checked to make sure...

i have noticed lumps that fit this description on my pup's hind legs... at first they were red like pimples with pus, and then went hard and the lump is still there but not red anymore.

is it something i should be worried about? i had the vet take a look but said it could be a bacterial folliculitis and put him on anti biotics, which did nothing...? also gave him a shot of cortizone to stop the itching temporarily cos he was chewing on his legs like they were kfc drumsticks!

what causes the staph and how can it be avoided???

to allergic staffy skin

[zayda_asher]

Because your pup is so young it could be what they commonly refer to as "puppy staph" (Which is the bacterial folliculitis your vet mentioned) - sometimes they have staph outbreaks as their immune system is growing and developing... so its not something I would worry about yet... If it clears up and never comes back that's probably what it was. So fingers crossed that's all it is for you! If it persists or reappears and becomes an issue when he is older then its something to worry about...

Staph lives on all our skin, but sometimes things go out of whack and it over grows and causes issues... Allergies is one cause...

QAYC: I'm still working on getting that pic for you!! Its hard to photograph!

Edited October 24, 2008 by zayda_asher

[stormie]

Ugh Atopy sucks Zayder, your Zayder's case sounds similar to us. Orbit came home at 9 weeks and the scratching started straight away. We missed our window for testing in the off season and now with the pollens increasing he's a bit of a mess.

Question for you, how did you get through the cortisone with-holding period for testing? Even in the off season the best we could get was about 10 days before he would be devouring himself.

[zayda_asher]

We actually weren't using cortisone because I am stubborn and didn't mind the extra work it meant to keep her comfy off it. She was (and still is) on antihistamines 2 x daily and the period for them to leave the system is much quicker from memory and then you can dose again as soon as they recover (in fact looking back at her admissions forms it doesn't say to withhold, but I'm sure we did). We bathed 3 x a week in Pyohex (didn't use Malaseb til later and we've also used Pyoben and Sebazole). We used Dermotic for her ears, which has a very low level topical dose of steriod, and again has a shorter withholding period. We also used antihistamine eye drops for her eyes. We bathed the areas 2 x daily that she scratched in clorhex rinse (now I'd use the resichlor lotion). And I kept on top of her to stop her scratching.

You could also rinse daily to get the pollens off. Keep them in a jacket so they can't scratch themselves as much and that helps keep the pollens off. Keep them dry too (as in dehumidify if its humid and dry paws / keep warm if its cold) that helps if there might be mold allergies.

In fact much later when she reacted to her immunotherapy (before we trialed it orally) she had another hideous patch and we again went back to the same routine... I've always saved oral steroids for the "big guns", like when she is stung... At this time she developed hives and we tried steroids and they didn't help her at all... So I did some research and we use olive leaf extract now.

Edited October 24, 2008 by zayda_asher

[stormie]

Yeah we're rinsing daily which helps to some extent, but definately not enough to be able to with hold cortisone. I might try some chlorhex too - malaseb and pyohex dry him right out which ends up making him more itchy.

Antihistamines don't seem to be doing anything which really sucks, got a couple more to try though. Which did you have the most success with? Thankfully he doesnt get ear infections which is so good, but I think he makes up for it with the rest of his body being insanely itchy.

We've done the eliminations trials so now it's just a matter of being able to test. Sooo frustration!