GoldensRGreat Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi everyone. I'm new here and would love some help. I rang the local training group but they're not taking any newbies till next year. I have a 10 month old golden retriever who I bought from a breeder. She was from a kennel of 18 and had had a little bit of training for the show ring. I've owned 2 goldens in the past and never had any trouble with their training but this girl has me beat. She's such a sweetie but a real stubborn one. She was a jumper when I got her but I've pretty much got that under control unless she's really excited. If I'm sitting on a chair it becomes a battle when i tell her loudly "BAH" and remove her leg. But she just continually puts her leg up again. I've had to resort to talking her outside but I don't want her to associate outside as punishment. She looks me right in the eye when she's doing it little bugga. She just will not give up until I get up and move away. I've only had her about 3 weeks and I've been doing training with her a couple of times a day. She is so absolutely stubborn and will only sit and stay when she feels like it. No amount of treats can make her do something she doesn't want to. Even walking her is a challenge as she often decides she doesn't want to walk at a particular time. She rolls over on her back and submits when I want her to do something she doesn't want to do. For instance, a walk, or trying to put her to bed at night she will just roll over and become a dead weight and not obey anything. What have I missed here and what am I doing wrong. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) She rolls over on her back and submits when I want her to do something she doesn't want to do. For instance, a walk, or trying to put her to bed at night she will just roll over and become a dead weight and not obey anything. What have I missed here and what am I doing wrong. My first dog used to do that in obedience classes, as soon as she rolled on her back and gave me that "ha ha, you wish!" look I knew it was effectively over for the day. I have also had to deal with "the paw" issue. Here's what I've had success with, it may or may not work for your goldie. If your goldie is giving you a hard eye, rather than just being cheeky, you should get a pro in to help: - Catch her doing the right thing and reward it. - Google Nothing In Life Is Free. If she wants something, she has to do something for it. No freebies, ever, while the dog is challenging you. If it wants something and isn't going to offer something in return, it doesn't get what it wants. - I never get up and walk away if my dog attempts to challenge me for a place on the couch. These days it's only the top male who very occasionally tries it by putting his paws on my knees and staring at me. I do not allow him to continue to do it, I move my body (not hands!) into his space to get him to give up and I project "presence" if that makes sense. I also make a point of removing any dog if it has sat down in either my spot or my OH's spot and I wish to sit down. - A slip lead is your friend. If the dog doesn't want to move on a cue, you put a slip lead around its neck and walk. Don't check or reef with it, just walk. It has to follow. If you have good upright confident posture, it's amazing how many dogs will comply. - Keep training sessions extremely short ETA: I knew I had it sorted when she of the "rolling on her back" would automatically get up when she saw me moving towards a space she knew was "mine". Good luck, it can be fixed! Edited October 22, 2008 by anita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adele Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 These are just my own thoughts can't say it is endorsed anywhere! I also have a 10 month old that loves putting her paw on you when sitting. I decided I needed a 'signal' from her to go outside for toilet and I chose this as her signal - putting her paw on you meant she wanted to go outside. It was pretty hard going at first because it felt like we were going outside ALL the time but it made her stop and think before she put her paw up and she has actually stopped doing it (and takes herself out to the toilet) So it actually didn't work as to how we thought but we don't get the paw up any more so I'm still happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldensRGreat Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Thanks so much for the advice. I'll try the things you've suggested. LOL at the paw thing. Will try that too. After I posted this we went out for a walk and when we were nearly home she decided she just wasn't going to walk any further. I was nearly in tears as she just stayed her ground and rolled over on her back and wouldn't budge. Took me about 20 mins to go from 5 houses down. Grrrr. I don't think she is playing. After reading what you've said I think it might be a mind game thing she's having with me so I'm going to have to stay strong. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crest_Fallen Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 What you are describing is really out of character for a goldie (I have a 9yo goldie). The stopping and refusing to move reminds me of a British Bulldog my ex once had. When we got him he would do this too and we couldn't work out why .... until we took him to the vet and found out he had problems with his knees (that warranted an operation) and his hips weren't great either. I would take her to the vet for a thorough check up first to rule out any medical reason for her behaviour. Goldies are usually extremely eager to please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldensRGreat Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yes, I must admit I've been really surprised as well. I've owned two goldens over the last 25 years and I've never had this sort of problem. They were just so eager and willing to learn but this girl just doesn't seem to even want to learn basics. It's so frustrating and it is out of character which is why I'm tearing my hair out. I've raised two kids who were really easy and 4 dogs who were as well so this is all new to me. I think I'll take her to the vet and get her checked out as you suggest and try and implement the other suggestions I've been given. Tnks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crest_Fallen Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Good luck at the vet. Our British Bulldog was a changed dog after his op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 What you are describing is really out of character for a goldie (I have a 9yo goldie). I hope the vet check finds somthing. It's out of character for a goldie with good, correct temperament but not all goldies have that. Locally a couple of goldies killed a BC which shocked me out of my complacency about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 That doesn't sound good- maybe she DOES have knee/hip issues and is sore Maybe she has learnt that by rolling over she at least gets a rest, and SOME attention To a dog- even 'BAH!", and moving away is ATTENTION- so their behaviour is rewarded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Agree with the vet check suggestion- but i have known a GRT who did a very similar thing through attention seeking/ learning and stubborness, so you wouldn't be the only one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) She sounds very confused to me. 3 weeks is not very long for her to bond with you. Re the putting the paw up, have you tried ignoring it? rather than telling her "bah" loudly? This sounds like an appreasing behaviour from a confused dog rather than stubborness. How did you teach her not to jump? is it possible that you have spent more time teaching her what not to do than what to do? How are you teaching her to stay? dogs do not know what the word means until you teach it. verbal reprimands when she moves will work to teach it, but will not help your relationship issues and will take some time. Better to ask for shorter stays, ie 1 second frm 1 step away & then 2 seconds from 1 step away etc & reward success. She will learn much quicker this way & you may find she displays less submissive behaviours. Make her walks shorter, carry food in your hand (part of her daily meal) and reward her for walking by your side intermittently. Have a read of NILIF. From today stop feeding her from her bowl & hand feed her every bite from your hand in return for her doing something, appropriate to her level of training . Spend some time playing fun games with her, teach her to trust you & to want to please you, make yourself fun. I don't think she is playing. After reading what you've said I think it might be a mind game thing she's having with me so I'm going to have to stay strong. a mind game? what do you mean by this? and what does staying strong entail? Edited October 22, 2008 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Can I ask North West of where? Maybe we can point you in the direction of classes that will take you both in now instead of waiting till next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldensRGreat Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 Hmmm. Sounds like I might be confusing her. I'm confused too because I'm training her the way I've trained all my others so don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm in Hoppers Crossing so if anyone knows anywhere could take us now I'd be most grateful. It's the Werribee Dog Club that I was trying to get into but can't till next year. When I referred to mind games I was referring to her trying to get the better of me. I take her for short walks so as not to tire her out. When I went to take her out this morning she ran into the laundry and rolled on her back so it wasn't a good start. When she jumps I just say no very loudly and turn my back on her for about 30 seconds. I just stand really still and ignore her. I've followed some of the advise here and with her pawing me I turn my body away from her and don't turn back till she removes her paw. It seems to be working. I don't think she lacks attention as she has free range of the house and yard to be with me when she needs to and I spend a good hour and a half or so over the day just on play alone and separate times on training and walking. I'm not so arrogant though to admit I need help as I seem to have lost my way and so dearly want us to have a good relationship. She truly is a lovely girl and I don't want to mess her up. Thanks for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I would contact Four Pws K9 Training- i'm sure they will be able to help you sooner rather than later! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crest_Fallen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I would still have her checked out thoroughly by your vet before going down the behavioural line. I agree that not all goldies have great temperaments (my dog's litter brother sure didn't and was PTS after attacking several dogs quite ferociously but I suspect this was also due to a problem with leadership). But the common thing with goldies is they all love to please their owner (although the degree to which this happens varies). Most goldies would be eager to go out for a walk so the fact that she runs in the other direction is quite worrying. I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldensRGreat Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 Yep, have appointment with vet in the morning. Have just read the NILIF and am quite keen to get it started regardless. I really do think I am confusing both her and myself and this seems like an excellent program to get our issues sorted out at least. I'll also contact the Four Pws K9 Training to see if we can get some help. Thanks again all. Will let you know what the vet says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
percyk Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 id get her checked by the vet first then id give it more time truly weeks arent enough it sometimes takes months to have that leadership made clear to some dogs they have to trust you - they have to know that youre the boss and they have to hand it over keep training her short and sweet try using a harness for extra help in walking her - both collar and harness keep the collar lead slack but use the harness to shift her bulk in these early stages - the collar can get a light jerk to indicate what you want - maybe use a martingale this has worked for me in the past with bigger dogs i have owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldensRGreat Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well, I'm just devastated. Vet has given her antiinflammatories as it seems my girl does have an issue with one of her elbows and perhaps two of them. She has also been diagnosed as being an allergy dog which I also suspected but I guess I was trying to ignore it as my last girl also had bad allergies. She wanted to do XRays on her but I simply couldn't afford it. I paid a lot of money for her and it's cost me heaps in the few weeks I've had her because of her ear infection and now her eyes are infected and her skin is reddening. She also thinks that perhaps her legs are a bit sore after walking and that's why she doesn't respond. So I'll have to do some thinking. I've arranged to attend obedience tomorrow, thanks to your great advice, so will see how she copes with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Oh I'm sorry she is sore- but glad you found out now, before doing things to try and correct her unwillingness. maybe that's why she doesn't want the lead on,too- she associates it,and the walks, with being sore? Hopefully with the anti inflamms, she will improve. The allergies are a bummer Did the breeder say why she was selling this pup? Have you spoken to them about the health problems? IF you are still going to obedience- make sure you let them know she is sore in front!! Also- adjust her exercise accordingly. Hopefully you can come to an arrangement with the vet- time payment or something... as Xray will give you a MUCH better idea of what's happening inside those joints.You may have decisions to make... so sooner would be better than later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Thats really unfortunate Would the vet allow you to pay off the x rays? We had to have x rays done on our boy o find out what was going on and at least once we knew, we could make decisions accordingly. I don't know whether i would go to obedience now though? You will be very limited to what you can do and it may be difficult to tell if any resistance or reaction is due to soreness- you don't want to pair pain with obedience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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